Honest rapid prototyping?

[inventor.x]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Indiana.

I first built a working prototype in less than a week as a model for my invention. I filed a provisional in Aug. 2013 as a 1 year placeholder while getting my invention to market. I then contracted a metal prototyping company, that has a very huge web presence, to build it for me. I was hoping for them to manufacture it for me while I market it and sold it. A win-win for both. They signed my attorney's NDA. I took a tour of their huge manufacturing plant and was impressed. They are the 2nd largest in the area. The president of the company personally called me and said he was very impressed with my invention, and he guaranteed it would make money for him too if I let them manufacture it. Verbally, they said they have it ready in a few weeks. There are only 4 small parts to my invention. This has been going on since last August, and they still can't get the first part right, and it always takes them 3/4 weeks to correct their mistake, only to find out they made another one. I even gave them my exact prototype with exact dimensions and they still get it wrong! I'm only in to them for $1000, for the first 10 completed prototypes, but I don't think they'll have them ready for me for another 5 years at their rate of progress. Are they playing me for a sucker? What can I do? Are all these rapid prototyping companies playing this game to discourage inventors in hopes of stealing their inventions? Are there any honest companies anywhere in the invention chain? Do I still have to file the utility by August?

Thanks to all responders.

 

[quincy]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Indiana.

... I filed a provisional in Aug. 2013 as a 1 year placeholder while getting my invention to market. I then contracted a metal prototyping company ... They signed my attorney's NDA. ... I even gave them my exact prototype with exact dimensions and they still get it wrong! I'm only in to them for $1000, for the first 10 completed prototypes, but I don't think they'll have them ready for me for another 5 years at their rate of progress. ...

You say you have an attorney. That is helpful.

Are they playing me for a sucker?

I don't know. What does your attorney think?

What can I do?

Have you asked your attorney this question? You can always find a different prototyping company, but I would discuss this with your lawyer after s/he has reviewed the contract you have with the current company.

Are all these rapid prototyping companies playing this game to discourage inventors in hopes of stealing their inventions?

I don't know, but I doubt it. How well did you investigate the current company before signing a contract with them?

Are there any honest companies anywhere in the invention chain?

Yes.

Do I still have to file the utility by August?

To get the benefit of the provisional patent application's filing date, you must file your regular application within one year of the PPA's filing date.


I recommend you make use of your attorney's knowledge and expertise (s/he is an IP attorney, correct?), so that you can get your patent application filed by August.

 

[inventor.x]

You say you have an attorney. That is helpful.


I don't know. What does your attorney think? I tell him what they tell me. That they are sorry and they'll fix it ASAP.


Have you asked your attorney this question? You can always find a different prototyping company, but I would discuss this with your lawyer after s/he has reviewed the contract you have with the current company.

I tried the largest company first, but after 3 weeks I called back and find out they lost my prototype. That's why I came to this company. There is no other company like this within 250 miles.

I don't know, but I doubt it. How well did you investigate the current company before signing a contract with them?
They have a huge web presence like the other company. I took them at their published word.


Yes.


To get the benefit of the provisional patent application's filing date, you must file your regular application within one year of the PPA's filing date.
If there are improvements can I re-file for missing parts?


I recommend you make use of your attorney's knowledge and expertise (s/he is an IP attorney, correct?), so that you can get your patent application filed by August.

He is aware of the situation, but not much he can do.

I recommend inventors not use a prototyping company and go for licensing instead. You get ripped off either way it seems.

 

[quincy]

I recommend inventors not use a prototyping company and go for licensing instead. You get ripped off either way it seems.

I am not surprised you feel that way, given your experience, but I am not sure your experience, or opinion, is shared by other inventors.

inventor.x, the following is a link with information you may find helpful, from the USPTO site - scroll down to "Extended Missing Parts Pilot Program Renewed for 2014" and click on "Read More." See if this can work for you.

http://www.uspto.gov/inventors/independent/eye/201404/index.jsp

In 2010, the USPTO introduced a pilot program ("missing parts pilot program") and it has been renewed through at least 2014. What this allows an inventor to do is file the non-provisional (regular) patent within the one year period of time after filing the PPA, to claim the benefit of the PPA filing date, but then request a delay in the payment of the search and examination fees. This essentially gives an inventor additional time.

I suggest you read the information provided by the USPTO on this program and then consult with your attorney. S/he will be aware of the program and can tell you if it will be of benefit to you, and the attorney can also help you get your non-provisional patent application ready for filing.

Good luck.

 

[justalayman]

I recommend inventors not use a prototyping company and go for licensing instead. You get ripped off either way it seems.

I had to check to see if you were the original poster or not. Given your original post and the questions asked, this response makes absolutely no sense.


How do you suggest one licenses a product they do not hold the patent on?

There are only 4 small parts to my invention.

and the point is? If they are 4 parts involving something complex, then 4 parts may be a lot. Stating there are only 4 parts is kind of meaningless. As to what they can or cannot get correct; again, depending on what you are talking about, it may suggest the company is filled with incompetent people or it may be so difficult to produce they, and maybe nobody else may be able to make it for you. Again, without something to gauge your statement against, in itself, it is meaningless.

This has been going on since last August, and they still can't get the first part right, and it always takes them 3/4 weeks to correct their mistake, only to find out they made another one.

so, are you suggesting that it is possible to rework whatever the part is rather than make a new one? Again...

well, I suspect you get the point.

 

[quincy]

I had to check to see if you were the original poster or not. Given your original post and the questions asked, this response makes absolutely no sense. ...

It took me awhile to find inventor.x's responses, justalayman, but he addressed what I wrote in my earlier post in the quoted portion of his post.

inventor.x, the prototyping company could be experiencing a problem with producing the prototypes, as justalayman said, but you said you have ten working prototypes completed by the company already, right? Maybe your invention just needs some tweaking to make it easier to work and produce.

Although I once again recommend you discuss this with your attorney, it might be smart to think about filing your non-provisional before the August PPA expiration date. Your other options are to just let your first PPA expire and do nothing, or file a second PPA. Either way, you will lose the priority filing date - and you risk losing your patent.

 

[justalayman]

quincy;3262142]It took me awhile to find inventor.x's responses, justalayman, but he addressed what I wrote in my earlier post in the quoted portion of his post.

I see that now. I hate when that happens. There needs to be some quickie "how to quote" for people.

inventor.x

the distance, within reason, should not be allowed to be an obstacle. Think of it this way: I have a choice of 2 doctors. One close but I have heard bad things about his patients with the same ailment as mine and one 500 miles away but has great success with treatment of my ailment. Do I go to the close one simply because he is close?

also realize that what a company publishes is what they want you to know. It's what others publish about a company that is generally more helpful. I mean, you didn't really expect them to put on their website:

we have a terrible record of producing products within agreed upon time frames. We have difficulty producing products acceptable to our customers quality standards.



Quincy: I don't think he has ANY completed machines yet:

I'm only in to them for $1000, for the first 10 completed prototypes, but I don't think they'll have them ready for me for another 5 years at their rate of progress

as I read that it cost him $1000 for the first 10 units but it appears they have not even produced any acceptable parts at all:

This has been going on since last August, and they still can't get the first part right,

 

[inventor.x]

I see that now. I hate when that happens. There needs to be some quickie "how to quote" for people.

inventor.x

the distance, within reason, should not be allowed to be an obstacle. Think of it this way: I have a choice of 2 doctors. One close but I have heard bad things about his patients with the same ailment as mine and one 500 miles away but has great success with treatment of my ailment. Do I go to the close one simply because he is close?

also realize that what a company publishes is what they want you to know. It's what others publish about a company that is generally more helpful. I mean, you didn't really expect them to put on their website:

we have a terrible record of producing products within agreed upon time frames. We have difficulty producing products acceptable to our customers quality standards.



Quincy: I don't think he has ANY completed machines yet:


as I read that it cost him $1000 for the first 10 units but it appears they have not even produced any acceptable parts at all:


Sorry, I can't figure out how to respond correctly. But no, I haven't got the first prototype yet. I already have the packaging, shipping, advertising and press releases ready. I'm just waiting on this company, and they know I'm ready to go and always apologize for the mistakes, but then takes them a month to correct the problems seems ridiculous to me, and invariably they always have another problem. The parts are easy to make. I can make them in one day. I can't understand what's going on. This can't be normal. It has to be on purpose.

 

[justalayman]

The parts are easy to make. I can make them in one day. .

so you have not made them yourself why? There must be a reason you hired these folks to produce the first run of 10. If you can make them as quickly as you state, in a couple weeks you would have your 10, right?

 

[quincy]

I see that now. I hate when that happens. There needs to be some quickie "how to quote" for people.

inventor.x

the distance, within reason, should not be allowed to be an obstacle. Think of it this way: I have a choice of 2 doctors. One close but I have heard bad things about his patients with the same ailment as mine and one 500 miles away but has great success with treatment of my ailment. Do I go to the close one simply because he is close?

also realize that what a company publishes is what they want you to know. It's what others publish about a company that is generally more helpful. I mean, you didn't really expect them to put on their website:

we have a terrible record of producing products within agreed upon time frames. We have difficulty producing products acceptable to our customers quality standards.



Quincy: I don't think he has ANY completed machines yet:


as I read that it cost him $1000 for the first 10 units but it appears they have not even produced any acceptable parts at all:



Sorry, I can't figure out how to respond correctly. But no, I haven't got the first prototype yet. I already have the packaging, shipping, advertising and press releases ready. I'm just waiting on this company, and they know I'm ready to go and always apologize for the mistakes, but then takes them a month to correct the problems seems ridiculous to me, and invariably they always have another problem. The parts are easy to make. I can make them in one day. I can't understand what's going on. This can't be normal. It has to be on purpose.

Oh. My mistake. I thought there were already 10 completed.

Is there a problem with the invention itself, inventor.x, in that the parts do not fit together well as designed, even if the parts on their own are easy to make? A redesign might be necessary, if that is the case.

What sort of contract do you have with the company currently working on them?

I think a contract review and a talk with your attorney is going to be necessary. As this is only May, you still have some options available to you, but you will want to decide soon what you want to (or are able to) do, if you don't want to risk your patent rights with a third party filing, should you run up against the one year deadline without having filed your non-provisional.

 

[inventor.x]

Oh. My mistake. I thought there were already 10 completed.

Is there a problem with the invention itself, inventor.x, in that the parts do not fit together well as designed, even if the parts on their own are easy to make? A redesign might be necessary, if that is the case.

What sort of contract do you have with the company currently working on them?

I think a contract review and a talk with your attorney is going to be necessary. As this is only May, you still have some options available to you, but you will want to decide soon what you want to (or are able to) do, if you don't want to risk your patent rights with a third party filing, should you run up against the one year deadline without having filed your non-provisional.

The first part is a 4 X 4 metal box housing, but with specific sized holes in certain places. The box holds the rest of my parts(all metal). They got the box right, but the holes in the wrong place. It took them 2 months to correct this mistake, as they kept blaming the bad winter weather for delays. When they finally called and said they had them correct, I found they countersunk them on the wrong side. This took another 3-4 weeks to correct. They finally called me again to say they finally have it, but they somehow put the holes in the wrong place again after just having them in the right place on the previous box. Sorry, but I'm frustrated. I can't just take off work to drive 250 miles to find another prototyper who may be just as incapable as these 2 local ones are here, as I'm finding out. I wish I knew the name of a good one. Then I would go.

I forgot to add, they also claim their main engineer is an ex NASA engineer, but he has been responsible for losing one of my parts also that I had to re-make which wasted another week.

 

[justalayman]

well, at least to the argument about them just making another part:

if the holes were in the wrong place, wouldn't it be the best method to make a new box and put the holes in the correct place? Same thing with the countersink.

Of course, if it is a metal that can be welded they could plug the holes or weld fill the countersinks but without knowing more about the part, I would have to guess that is more expensive than just starting new.



have you drawn a blueprint for these folks? If not, why not? If so, if they are so incompetent they cannot follow simple drawings, it sounds like you chose the wrong place.

as to having to drive 250 miles:

there is a thing called the internet. You can have video conferences on it. There is also mail/UPS/FedEx. The finished part could be shipped to you relatively inexpensively.

personally I am wondering why you are having all the trouble you are as well, at least based on what you have described so far. The only thing I can think of is this is not a high priority for them either due to the small cost involved (and resulting small profit) or quite possibly, their costs exceed what you are paying them. $100 to machine 4 parts? Depending on how this box is being made, I can see it alone costing more than $25 to make. ($1000/40 parts= $25 average cost per piece). Prototype machining is more costly than production machining since each part has to be set up independently with no processes or tooling made that would reduce the costs. Each piece is essentially a specialty one of a kind part.

 

[TigerD]

I forgot to add, they also claim their main engineer is an ex NASA engineer, but he has been responsible for losing one of my parts also that I had to re-make which wasted another week.

That's the only part of this that makes sense.

DC

 

[quincy]

The first part is a 4 X 4 metal box housing, but with specific sized holes in certain places. The box holds the rest of my parts(all metal). They got the box right, but the holes in the wrong place. It took them 2 months to correct this mistake, as they kept blaming the bad winter weather for delays. When they finally called and said they had them correct, I found they countersunk them on the wrong side. This took another 3-4 weeks to correct. They finally called me again to say they finally have it, but they somehow put the holes in the wrong place again after just having them in the right place on the previous box. Sorry, but I'm frustrated. I can't just take off work to drive 250 miles to find another prototyper who may be just as incapable as these 2 local ones are here, as I'm finding out. I wish I knew the name of a good one. Then I would go.

I forgot to add, they also claim their main engineer is an ex NASA engineer, but he has been responsible for losing one of my parts also that I had to re-make which wasted another week.

No one here can tell you what to do, inventor.x. Any decision on what to do will have to be made by you, based on the options available. I can only tell you that your options become more limited the closer to the August date you get.

If you decide to stay with the current prototyping company, they may eventually get it right. There are probably only so many wrong ways to put together your invention and, once they get it right, production should be relatively easy and fast.

And, you can certainly demonstrate you have worked toward the goal of making a working model of your invention. This works in your favor when getting your patent approved.

I recommend you keep good records of the progress (or lack thereof ) made by the prototyping company since your PPA was filed. Document all activity, the hits as well as the misses. Progress does not always mean a simple track from Point A to Point B.

Again, discuss all of this with your attorney. I think you would be smart to still look to filing your regular application prior to the August date and request the delay under the pilot program. But it is important to rely on the advice of your attorney and not advice provided on a forum. Your attorney has access to all of the facts of your specific situation.

Good luck.

 

[inventor.x]

No one here can tell you what to do, inventor.x. Any decision on what to do will have to be made by you, based on the options available. I can only tell you that your options become more limited the closer to the August date you get.

If you decide to stay with the current prototyping company, they may eventually get it right. There are probably only so many wrong ways to put together your invention and, once they get it right, production should be relatively easy and fast.

And, you can certainly demonstrate you have worked toward the goal of making a working model of your invention. This works in your favor when getting your patent approved.

I recommend you keep good records of the progress (or lack thereof ) made by the prototyping company since your PPA was filed. Document all activity, the hits as well as the misses. Progress does not always mean a simple track from Point A to Point B.

Again, discuss all of this with your attorney. I think you would be smart to still look to filing your regular application prior to the August date and request the delay under the pilot program. But it is important to rely on the advice of your attorney and not advice provided on a forum. Your attorney has access to all of the facts of your specific situation.

Good luck.

I have discussed with my attorney about this, but he doesn't know what to do as the company is well respected. Both companies have a huge web presence. When the first company I contacted didn't get back to me after a few weeks and I found out they were so irresponsible, that they lost my prototype and blueprints is why IO came to the 2nd company. This new company assured they'd have my prototype ready for production run in a few short weeks, but now is almost a year. They had it almost right once, but now everything is way off. I can't understand how this happened.
That's why I'm beginning to believe something more nefarious is taking place. I have a feeling they are trying to financially ruin me and to dissuade me enough in the hopes of stealing my invention. If they do, I'm guessing I'll have a lawsuit on my hands, but I'll be broke by then and won't be able to afford an attorney.
Sorry, but I'm beginning think it's the typical story where the huge corporate monolith steps on the small guy to steal his invention while laughing all the way to the bank.