How can I get paid for funeral expenses?

[T Kizewski]

I live in Macomb County, Michigan. My father died September 16, 2004, intestate and indigent. He did, however, have a life insurance policy that he intended to pay for his funeral, although it was not specified as a burial, but a whole life policy. Its current cash value is only $6000. It's benificary is listed as "Estate".
I have personally incurred and have receipts for $700 from the funeral home, $200 for misc. decorations at the funeral home and the wake, $2000 for the dinner I held in his honor after the funeral for his entire family. I also have receipts from family members for about $700 more of expenses they paid for things such as refreshments during the visitation service in the funeral home basement, scrapbook purchasing and assembly, photo reproduction, framing, etc. I would like to reimburse them for their costs if possible before dividing what remains from the insurance policy among the heirs. I have 2 brothers.
Have been to county probate court. I am permitted to file a "simple" estate, which would not require an executor, would put priority of payment on funeral/burial expense, and the remaining value of the estate (the 6k mentioned above, as there is NO real or personal property in the estate) would be distributed to the heirs. Sounds good right?
ONE PROBLEM. According to the court (if I understand them correctly), the only thing that constitutes a "funeral/burial" expense is a bill paid to a FUNERAL HOME. This seems absurd to me, as I incurred many expenses just in planning the funeral, as did other members of my family. They said that I cannot claim the dinner, the cost for creating an album, framing of memorials, food at the funeral home, or EVEN THE COST TO OPEN THE ESTATE, which will be about $90. Is this correct??
My father was a quadrupalegic in a nursing home for 2 years before he died. Before that lived in my home for his entire life, as he was permanently disabled when I was only 6 years old. In 1996, he nearly died as the result of an infection, and at that time, I became his legal guardian. But I know upon death, guardianship ceases.
My 2 brothers (the only other heirs) have fully supported my guardianship of him - as they didn't want that job. They also have been quite comfortable leaving the responsibility of his care entirely to me, even when he was bed ridden and I could not leave him alone. They were even so kind as to return to the funeral home the MORNING AFTER the funeral and TAKE BACK THEIR FLOWERS!!! I had planned to send them on to the nursing home where he had lived and was shocked to find out the funeral director had let my brothers wife in to plunder what was left at her leisure, as she was never involved with any part of the funeral planning, nor did she pay their bill - I DID!
Their is also the option of opening a FULL estate, which will cost me about $300 to open, but would require public notification to creditors. I am sure there are doctors out there he owes money to, as well as the State of Michigan, as his nursing home stay was paid by Medicaid. I don't object to all of the money going to them, but I am afraid that these creditors would take precedence over funeral expenses, and I wouldn't get paid back for anything.
I have presented all the facts and as you can see, I need all of the help I can get!

 

[BlondiePB]

ONE PROBLEM. According to the court (if I understand them correctly), the only thing that constitutes a "funeral/burial" expense is a bill paid to a FUNERAL HOME.

Correct. Your dinner, decorations, refreshments, extravaganza memorial book and framing are NOT expenses entitled to reimbursement.

 

[T Kizewski]

Thanks for the quick reply blondie. I have read some of the advice you have given others, and I trust whatever you say.
But if there is $6K out there in the form of an insurance policy, what is the best way to go about getting it to the people who loaned me the money?

If I go with a simple estate, there is no executor, the insurance money is split by thirds, leaving me with much less than I am in for already. I know I won't be reimbursed by my brothers, when they didn't offer to pay a cent (in fact, told me I would have to sign a promisory note to THEM if they were going to pitch in any money) toward his wake. They knew that it was costing me PLENTY.

If I have the time, and I am pretty sure that my brothers would not challenge my appointment as executor, would it better to open a full estate? I know it will cost me $300 to file, and YES it will take 5 or 6 month. But wouldn't I be able to distribute funds in priority, allowing me to recoup the filing fee as an expense of administration, and designate funeral expenses according to my discretion, as long as they were "reasonable"? I really do not feel that my total of $3400 in expenses is UNreasonable, and wouldn't they be required to object to them in court, or would that be at the discretion of the court officer?

 

[BlondiePB]

Thanks for the quick reply blondie. I have read some of the advice you have given others, and I trust whatever you say.
But if there is $6K out there in the form of an insurance policy, what is the best way to go about getting it to the people who loaned me the money?

If I go with a simple estate, there is no executor, the insurance money is split by thirds, leaving me with much less than I am in for already. I know I won't be reimbursed by my brothers, when they didn't offer to pay a cent (in fact, told me I would have to sign a promisory note to THEM if they were going to pitch in any money) toward his wake. They knew that it was costing me PLENTY.

If I have the time, and I am pretty sure that my brothers would not challenge my appointment as executor, would it better to open a full estate? I know it will cost me $300 to file, and YES it will take 5 or 6 month. But wouldn't I be able to distribute funds in priority, allowing me to recoup the filing fee as an expense of administration, and designate funeral expenses according to my discretion, as long as they were "reasonable"? I really do not feel that my total of $3400 in expenses is UNreasonable, and wouldn't they be required to object to them in court, or would that be at the discretion of the court officer?

Regardless of what type of probate case, the previously mentioned items by me above are not entitled to be reimbursed. You and your family are the ones that chose to have dinner, buy and put up decorations at the funeral home, and make an elaborate memory book. All of these things, including buying refreshments, are NOT entitled to reimbursement from the estate because all these things are not "necessary" expenses.

After the funeral home is paid, any monies then are paid for one's final medical bills. If Medicaid has a claim to what little is left, then that's who gets paid next, unless Social Security requires reimbursement who will then be paid prior to Medicaid. Quite frankly, there cannot be much money left over, even if your father was cremated.

Since you were also your father's legal guardian, what happened to his belongings, including household belongings like furniture, etc. that you had to report on the inventory for the court? What happened to the money in the guardian accounts?

In some states, guardianship does end upon death of the ward. It's not true in all states. I did not look up MI's law regarding this. Have you been discharged as your father's guardian by the court with a court order? Did you do a final guardian accounting?

What happened to your father's social security money? Did social security send you a letter regarding the last payment? Depending on when SS issued the monies and the time of death of the beneficiary is whether or not that last payment needs to be returned to SS.

If there is any money left over after the PROPER and LEGAL order of expenses are to be paid by law, come back here and I'll tell you how to legally acquire what is left for you to do as you please -- including your choice to reimburse from your money whatever is not entitled reimbursements.

If your father was an honorably discharged veteran, you can obtain a free headstone or marker for him from the Veteran's Administration.

 

[T Kizewski]

Thanks Blondie, so much new info that I had no idea about. Good question about his assets at death. Unfortunately, at death, he was in a nursing home, and his last SS payment went to them. They were responsible to prorate the difference at time of death. As for assets, he had only an old TV, a VCR, and some shaving things that were pretty much worthless. I gave my oldest brother his only jewelry, a wedding ring and an onyx pinky ring about a year before he died. There will not be any dispute over assets of any value, as both my siblings know he had none.
I think I may have stumbled on some good news, if I understand it correctly. I did some research after starting this thread at www.legistlature.mi.gov and researched Act 386 dealing with estates. There is a section #700.2404 regarding "Exempt Property". It specifies that in the absence of a surviving spouse, that the decedents children are entiltled to top to $10k prior to the payment of residual expenses of the decedent. They call it a "Family Allowance". This section also repeats the priority of the disbursements from the estate putting Administration costs (which I am not exactly sure what those are, or if it can include a fee to the executor) ahead of creditors. I would be happy to reimburse my family for their expenses out of whatever I could claim as an Administration Expense or Executor fee.

Perhaps I misunderstood this provision? The following is a link to that provision.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getobject&objname=mcl-700-2404&relation

 

[BlondiePB]

Thanks Blondie, so much new info that I had no idea about. Good question about his assets at death. Unfortunately, at death, he was in a nursing home, and his last SS payment went to them. They were responsible to prorate the difference at time of death. As for assets, he had only an old TV, a VCR, and some shaving things that were pretty much worthless. I gave my oldest brother his only jewelry, a wedding ring and an onyx pinky ring about a year before he died. There will not be any dispute over assets of any value, as both my siblings know he had none.
I think I may have stumbled on some good news, if I understand it correctly. I did some research after starting this thread at www.legistlature.mi.gov and researched Act 386 dealing with estates. There is a section #700.2404 regarding "Exempt Property". It specifies that in the absence of a surviving spouse, that the decedents children are entiltled to top to $10k prior to the payment of residual expenses of the decedent. They call it a "Family Allowance". This section also repeats the priority of the disbursements from the estate putting Administration costs (which I am not exactly sure what those are, or if it can include a fee to the executor) ahead of creditors. I would be happy to reimburse my family for their expenses out of whatever I could claim as an Administration Expense or Executor fee.

Perhaps I misunderstood this provision? The following is a link to that provision.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getobject&objname=mcl-700-2404&relation

I do not ask this sort of question, but am making an exception here. How much money is left over from the $6,000.00 after paying the funeral home?

 

[T Kizewski]

Re: funeral bills to date-
In my first entry, I listed all "possible" claims on my fathers estate- knowing that some of them may not qualify.
Quote:
I have personally incurred and have receipts for $700 from the funeral home, $200 for misc. decorations at the funeral home and the wake, $2000 for the dinner I held in his honor after the funeral for his entire family. I also have receipts from family members for about $700 more of expenses they paid for things such as refreshments during the visitation service in the funeral home basement, scrapbook purchasing and assembly, photo reproduction, framing, etc.
As for all other costs for the funeral home and the burial, my father and I had set up a prepaid funeral trust 5 years prior to his death that paid for everything else. The only one that incurred any funeral bill after that was me, and I have a receipt for the balance which was about $700.

I really don't give a fig if I get paid back for the decorations I bought. But I am have to decide whether it is worth my effort to make sure that the other family members that actually loved and cared for my father enough to do so many things for his funeral could POSSIBLY be reimbursed for their costs. I will find a way to classify it as a funeral expense, even if I have to get invoices from them. It will seem petty to a stranger to want to do this, but I want to make every effort to reward those who CARED and not just send a check to those who simply showed up for the free dinner. As for my brothers being a benefit to my fathers estate, I would rather give it to Medicaid! I would rather throw it off a bridge!

I hope that the court officer does not feel as you do that the $700 cost for scrapbook/framing materials and refreshments are excessive. "Extravaganza" scrapbook was a bit harsh don't you think? Framing large photo's of a persons life, scrapbooks, and things of that nature, are EXTREMELY expensive. As a gift from my father, I would like to give my cousin $500 to offset her costs. She has NEVER asked for money, and has no idea I am trying to get her paid from the estate. Considering that she put it together in 48 hours, with very little sleep, I will call that a bargain.

By the way, were you able to open the link to the Mich Legislature I sent you? What are your thoughts on the exempt property?

 

[BlondiePB]

I will find a way to classify it as a funeral expense, even if I have to get invoices from them.

"Finding" a way to classify those expenses will end up with you facing a very irate judge. Regardless of what type of probate administration is done, this all is reviewed by court auditors. The auditors are VERY meticulous.

I hope that the court officer does not feel as you do that the $700 cost for scrapbook/framing materials and refreshments are excessive. "Extravaganza" scrapbook was a bit harsh don't you think? Framing large photo's of a persons life, scrapbooks, and things of that nature, are EXTREMELY expensive. As a gift from my father, I would like to give my cousin $500 to offset her costs. She has NEVER asked for money, and has no idea I am trying to get her paid from the estate. Considering that she put it together in 48 hours, with very little sleep, I will call that a bargain.

I am trying to help you, not be petty. Please keep this in mind. The court officer/auditor will view this in a much more negative way than petty. That's why as I stated above, you will be seeing a very "irate" judge. You must do this legally, and it can be done legally if you would just answer my questions, okay? Now, you tell me that there was also a funeral trust.

Please add the total of the trust and the $6,000.00 life insurance policy. Then subtract ONLY the invoice from the funeral home for funeral. Please do no include the refreshments, dinner, decorations, etc. If you do not want to post the amount, then go into your user CP and enable your private messaging and send me a private message.

Also, have you been officially discharged as your father's guardian with a court order?

 

[T Kizewski]

Thanks for your candor Blondie. Sometimes I need a good talking to!
Sorry for my misunderstanding. I am a little slow sometimes.

Put simply...

The ONLY funeral trust was a PREPAID IRREVOCABLE trust, these funds were dispursed to the funeral home after his service was complete. I had signed some papers so that the funeral home could get paid. The service went OVER the amount of the trust by some $700. I paid that, and I have a receipt.

The ONLY remaining funds in the estate is the cash value of his whole life policy, which (after loans are paid) is about $6000. The insurance company is still waiting to pay on the policy, but the policy states that the benificiary is the ESTATE. If I set up an estate I will file a petition for the court to appoint me as the administrator. This would come without objection from my siblings, and I believe the court, as I was his legal guardian up to his death.

The insurance company informed me that I could file an affidavit stating that there is no will, and they could dispurse funds without probate. They would evenly split the estate between the 3 surviving children, giving 1/3 to each child.

Doing it this simple way, without probate sounds good right? I could get the money to my husband for the wake, but I will lose the $700, as the insurance company will not take funeral expenses (any type) into consideration.

My brothers are not sensible, and could not be counted on to be equitable with regard to making sure I got paid back for what I have spent, and splitting the remainder, which I would be happy to do.

Prior to even knowing what was in this policy, they had already refused to share any responsibility of his funeral or the wake. So as you can see, it is more than a little hard for me to just let them get $2k for doing nothing, when I am already 2.7k in the hole.

FYI, HERE ARE THE NUMERICAL FACTS:
Cash value of Whole Life policy: $6k
Paid funeral expense:$700
Net remaining cash value after paying funeral expenses: $5300

What to do...

 

[BlondiePB]

Thanks for your candor Blondie. Sometimes I need a good talking to!
Sorry for my misunderstanding. I am a little slow sometimes.

Put simply...

The ONLY funeral trust was a PREPAID IRREVOCABLE trust, these funds were dispursed to the funeral home after his service was complete. I had signed some papers so that the funeral home could get paid. The service went OVER the amount of the trust by some $700. I paid that, and I have a receipt.

The ONLY remaining funds in the estate is the cash value of his whole life policy, which (after loans are paid) is about $6000. The insurance company is still waiting to pay on the policy, but the policy states that the benificiary is the ESTATE. If I set up an estate I will file a petition for the court to appoint me as the administrator. This would come without objection from my siblings, and I believe the court, as I was his legal guardian up to his death.

The insurance company informed me that I could file an affidavit stating that there is no will, and they could dispurse funds without probate. They would evenly split the estate between the 3 surviving children, giving 1/3 to each child.

Doing it this simple way, without probate sounds good right? I could get the money to my husband for the wake, but I will lose the $700, as the insurance company will not take funeral expenses (any type) into consideration.

My brothers are not sensible, and could not be counted on to be equitable with regard to making sure I got paid back for what I have spent, and splitting the remainder, which I would be happy to do.

Prior to even knowing what was in this policy, they had already refused to share any responsibility of his funeral or the wake. So as you can see, it is more than a little hard for me to just let them get $2k for doing nothing, when I am already 2.7k in the hole.

FYI, HERE ARE THE NUMERICAL FACTS:
Cash value of Whole Life policy: $6k
Paid funeral expense:$700
Net remaining cash value after paying funeral expenses: $5300

What to do...

Okay, I will look into MI statutes/codes later. Thank you for breaking all this down. Check back later this evening or in the morning. If you read this prior to logging off now, did you have a guardianship checking account established for your father that included your name on it as his guardian?

Example of title of account would be:

Guardianship of (name of your father) -- on Line 1
Your name, guardian -- on line two


I know his SS went to the nursing home. This is not what I am asking. If you do have an account established like example above, do not touch any more funds from the account. Just let me know.

 

[BlondiePB]

IMO, the on line site for MI statutes is a PITA (pain in the a$$).

This is what I read and understood in MI statutes. If you are guardian of dad's estate, you cannot be discharged without a court order and cannot get discharged until a final accounting is done and approved. I found nothing regarding requiring being discharged via a court order for guardian of the person, just that guardian of the person is terminated upon death of the ward. If you do have to do an accounting and have a guardian checking account, after the accounting is approved, you will require that any money in the account be payable to the estate of your father and close that account. You will require letters of administration.

For estates less than $15,000.00, the court will allow the monies to be immediately dispersed to the heirs, excluding your $700.00 receipt for the funeral home. However, should there be a claim, the heirs are responsible for paying the claim(s).

Executors are entitled to reasonable compensation. I did not find just exactly what is "reasonable compensation." Typically, this is a percentage of the estate ranging from 3% to as much as, which is rare, 10%. Even if you requested the maximum, that would be $600.00. Please ask a local probate attorney this. The clerk at the courthouse also may have some information regarding this.

Aministration costs are things such as: the cost to open the probate file, cost to notify heirs by CRR mail, cost to file papers with the court, cost to put notice in newspaper for creditors to file a claim, etc.

Also in the statutes you will find that you are entitled to be paid for being your father's guardian. You can make a claim against the estate for guardian fees. If you read the statutes, you will find very important information there about this.

Based on what you said about your brothers, it is likely that you will end up with the short end of the stick if you have the insurance company just divide the money evenly. In additon, whoever you signed promissary notes to can still take you to small claims over that money.

Please make an appointment with a probate attorney that also specializes in guardianships. You do not have to have the attorney do the probate for you. The average cost for an hour's time with a probate attorney is $250.00, which is an administrative cost. This attorney can provide you with the proper guidance regarding your $700.00 claim for the funeral, your claim for guardian fees (how to fill out/itemize the claim), and the executor's fees. All that will be payable to you and most likely total or come close to totalling $6,000.00.

 

[T Kizewski]

Yes, I do still have a joint checking account with my father as primary, and my name listed second (with OR between the names). The grand total in this account is $82.63.

When I set up the guardianship, I knew that my dad was broke. So for this purpose, I did not set myself up as a conservator. This meant (at least to me) that I would not have to deal with the hassles of providing the court with an accounting at each annual renewal. I was told by the clerk (or someone at the probate court) that this was the simplest way to handle guardianship of an indigent ward. From then on, I was only required to file an Annual Report on the Condition of the ward. There is a box on this form (PC 634, Line 12) that states "I..do not... have possion or control of the adult's estate, which I checked. The only other requirement was that every other year, a guardian ad leitem would have to meet with me and my dad to make a judgement on whether the guardianship should continue.

Should I assume that because I never had to provide an accounting before, that I do not have to provide one now? Also, I did not know I have to do anything regarding the guardianship. As you stated, I believed the guardianship ceased upon his death. Was there anything I was supposed to do?

Also regarding guardianship fees, I am not familiar with that statute. Do you mean the monthly fee while he was alive, or some amount to be paid upon his death? Because the monthly $33 (I think it was) was paid to me by the nursing home each month, and was current upon his death.

Thanks for the attorney referral, but as you can see, I am trying to wing this on my own. I may blow it, but I intend to go down in a blaze of glory doing it my way! No eye rolling please! Besides using such a small estate's money on a $250 an hour lawyer would be akin to shooting a rabbit with an elephant gun

I know I sound bull-headed, so your patience with me is SO COMFORTING. I do have one more teensy weensy question. Upon my being set up as the executor, wouldn't I be able to pay back my family members at my discretion? Or is the court officer going to still question each expenses validity? You said before I would face an irrate judge. I sure don't want to do that. But isn't it the responsibility of the executor to decide what is a justifiable funeral expense? If no heirs object, why would the judge care? It's not like I had 50 bagpipers and a 21 gun salute, but if that is what I wanted for my Dad, why would the judge want to argue with me about it?

P.S. What does IMO mean?

 

[BlondiePB]

Yes, I do still have a joint checking account with my father as primary, and my name listed second (with OR between the names). The grand total in this account is $82.63.

This is not a guardian account. This is a co-owned account.

When I set up the guardianship, I knew that my dad was broke. So for this purpose, I did not set myself up as a conservator. This meant (at least to me) that I would not have to deal with the hassles of providing the court with an accounting at each annual renewal. I was told by the clerk (or someone at the probate court) that this was the simplest way to handle guardianship of an indigent ward. From then on, I was only required to file an Annual Report on the Condition of the ward. There is a box on this form (PC 634, Line 12) that states "I..do not... have possion or control of the adult's estate, which I checked. The only other requirement was that every other year, a guardian ad leitem would have to meet with me and my dad to make a judgement on whether the guardianship should continue.

Okay.

Should I assume that because I never had to provide an accounting before, that I do not have to provide one now?

No. The conservator is responsible to the court for the accounting.

Also, I did not know I have to do anything regarding the guardianship. As you stated, I believed the guardianship ceased upon his death. Was there anything I was supposed to do?

Yes. You must bring an original death certificate to the court to be placed in the guardian of the person file. You may be able to use the same original death certificate to open the probate case. The court clerk can make a certified copy for one of the files.

Also regarding guardianship fees, I am not familiar with that statute. Do you mean the monthly fee while he was alive, or some amount to be paid upon his death? Because the monthly $33 (I think it was) was paid to me by the nursing home each month, and was current upon his death.

Was there anything specified with the $33.00 indicating what the money was for? The conservator must report this to the court on the accounting report.

Thanks for the attorney referral, but as you can see, I am trying to wing this on my own. I may blow it, but I intend to go down in a blaze of glory doing it my way! No eye rolling please! Besides using such a small estate's money on a $250 an hour lawyer would be akin to shooting a rabbit with an elephant gun

There's very good reasons I told you to pay for one hour's time with an attorney. An attorney can tell you if you can be paid by the hour for being the executor and how much per hour is reasonable compensation. The attorney can advise you on how to itemize your time. I will NOT post how to do this. The attorney can advise you how to itemize your time for guardian of the person. I will NOT post how to do this.

I know I sound bull-headed, so your patience with me is SO COMFORTING.

Can I now nickname you "Torrie" for being so bullish?

I do have one more teensy weensy question. Upon my being set up as the executor, wouldn't I be able to pay back my family members at my discretion?

Not with the estate account.

Or is the court officer going to still question each expenses validity?

The auditors will go through the accounting, examine it, and you will have to answer for it. I have had only one report rejected by the court. It was rejected for a date, not money. The reason it was rejected was that someone in the court auditors' office did not change a date to complement an amended court order. Auditors even reject accounting reports done by CPAs.

You said before I would face an irrate judge. I sure don't want to do that. But isn't it the responsibility of the executor to decide what is a justifiable funeral expense? If no heirs object, why would the judge care? It's not like I had 50 bagpipers and a 21 gun salute, but if that is what I wanted for my Dad, why would the judge want to argue with me about it?

In your first post, you stated " According to the court (if I understand them correctly), the only thing that constitutes a "funeral/burial" expense is a bill paid to a FUNERAL HOME." This is what matters to the court. This is what the court "deems" as necessary funeral expenses. There is only one exception to this and none of what you believe are your "justifiable" expenses are acceptable to the court. It does not matter whether or not heirs object or do not object. The bottom line is what the court accepts as necessary funeral expenses. When it comes to an estate, judges care very much about the proper and legal handling of it.

P.S. What does IMO mean?

In my opinion. Therefore, IMO, you have been lead to water.

 

[T Kizewski]

Thanks for the water Blondie, you must have known how thirsty I was.

Of all the things you stated, the only thing that still has me CONFUSED is your use of the term "Conservator". I WAS NOT the conservator of my fathers estate. I was never appointed conservatorship, and never applied for it either.

This is why I never provided the Probate court with an accounting, in all of the 8 years I was his guardian.

 

[BlondiePB]

Thanks for the water Blondie, you must have known how thirsty I was.

You are very welcome, Torrie. Your sense of humor is appreciated.

Of all the things you stated, the only thing that still has me CONFUSED is your use of the term "Conservator". I WAS NOT the conservator of my fathers estate. I was never appointed conservatorship, and never applied for it either.

This is why I never provided the Probate court with an accounting, in all of the 8 years I was his guardian.

I'm not confused about who is what here. It took a few posts to obtain the info that you were just the guardian of your father's person only. The institution (nursing home) is the conservator over your dad's estate and must provide the court with an accounting for managing his money (social security and medicaid). Actually, in this instance, having the nursing home be the conservator was very smart. You had plenty to do as dad's guardian of his person.