What would you do????????

[bigdummy]

What is the name of your state? Georgia, Estate and Trust in MI

Relative on my mothers side died in 1977. Trust left to the living issue of my mother (deceased), 2 of us. Also the living issue of his second wifes daughters children 4. This is per capita, not per stirpes. I was 16 when he died. The trustee is the son-in-law (lawyer) and father of the 4 children also in MI. The wife was to receive (in theory) any interest of the over 2m trust OR the trustee could break up the entire trust to her health and maintenance, which is a joke considering the Grosse Pointe address. My sister and I are the only blood relatives and the belongings and original sum of the estate is something we have no idea how to determine.

I am in a really bad situation at the point of my life and in the trust it states that the trustee has the ability to provide for any of the beneficiaries at any time. I am in the middle of a divorce, I got laid off and I am looking at finanancial disaster yet when I humbled myself to ask for possibly some the of over half a million I have (potentially) coming to me, I was told NO immediately and that it was not possible. I get a statement every year, yet they all benefit from the monies of the trust and in 20 years I have never asked and even though we must wait for his wife to pass......she must be in her late 90's and I am wondering what I can do.......

a) I want to know what the contents and properties were in the original estate. The wife has all of the personal family heirlooms of my family and I can't even be given her address and phone number.......

b) If the trust says he can give me monies, what are my options if he says no....

I don't want to rock the boat or I may end up with nothing, but if I ever needed help or money it is now, other than my sister my entire family is deceased......

What do I do?

 

[absconder]

Talk to a good probate lawyer.

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

Talk to a good probate lawyer.

My response:

What would Jesus do???????????

IAAL

 

[bigdummy]

What would Jesus do?

Jesus would do the same thing I have done for 20 years.....live and let live......but I need help now....and I know daggone well those 4 have been benefiting from the monies for year.......

I have a feeling that I will never see a dime of that money and I will probbaly never see any of the many heirlooms that my sister and I are very much entitled to considering we are blood......they are all living in the homss on Lakeshore.......

I have done what Jesus would want me to do for 20 years.....but now I need what is technically rightfully mine......and to be treated like THE OUTSIDER for even asking such a question is something that is right under my skin!

 

[Dandy Don]

Since we don't see the actual language of the will, you would need to take it to a local trust attorney to get a complete interpretation of exactly what you will be receiving and how the per capita definition affects the trust.

What is the exact language of the phrase that says "trustee has ability to provide for beneficiaries at any time"? That could be interpreted any way--trustee could say he is only legally obligated to give you what you were left in the trust, and you as a beneficiary could say that you have the right to some of your money as long as the request is reasonable. Have you received any monies at all from this trust yet, or nothing at all? If the condition that you must wait for the wife to pass applies, then it is going to be difficult for you to get access to any money, as the trustee must legally administer the trust as it exactly directs.

Breaking up the trust due to her health or maintenance is NOT a joke--it doesn't matter how expensive her house is, if her health deteriorates and large medical expenses are incurred, she will need that money to help pay medical expenses, but you should hope that that does not occur.

You say you've been receiving "statements" (what type of statements-financial statements, accounting statements)? When the trust was first administered after the death, if you received a copy of the trust then you possibly also received the right to get accounting information about the assets in the trust--if you didn't get that then you need to be consulting with a trust attorney about how you can get that information. There may have been only a trust (with all assets put into the trust so that probate could be avoided), or there could have been both a will and a trust (if there was a will, you can check with the county courthouse where the death occurred to look at the file and see what financial information is there).

Your attorney can better advise you about how best to request any monies from this trustee (perhaps if you provided a good reason for needing it), and can also possibly get clarification from the trustee about what you can ask for and when you can ask for it.

In the meantime, don't depend on this money to bail you out. I'm sure you are searching for a new job, right?

DANDY DON IN OKLAHOMA ([email protected])

 

[bigdummy]

Actual Wording of Will/Trust

First to Dandy Don.....I believe you may have misunderstood my reference to health and maintenance. I realize it is not a joke however I also realize that it would not be necessary to access the trust for such care. IF it was, I would be the first to agree to it......but it wouldn't be the case.

Wording regarding beneficiaries distributions by Trustee

"During the time my Trusteeee hols such beneficiariey's share in trust he may, in his sole and uncontrolled discretion, pya to or for the benefit of such beneficiary so much of the income and principal of such beneficiary's share as my Trustee in his discretions, believes is necessary for the continued health, education and general welfare of such beneficiary"


I get an accounting every year and a one month statement from the Firm handling the monies.

I am not relying on this money to bail me out, I am not in a bail me out situation yet.

I just have certain knowlege that this trust has been a cash cow for some of the trustees children and while I have never even considered probate I really want to know the original asset base when he died.

If I probate am I going to piss off the Trustee?

 

[Dandy Don]

If you think there WAS a will probated, then you need to check at the county courthouse probate court to look at the probate file to see if perhaps an asset inventory was included. If mother had only a trust and all her assets were put into the trust, then there will be no public record of how the personal property was handled and you may have reached a dead end.

If the personal property was not put into the trust, then the trustee may have had no authority to claim personal possessions--only the administrator/executor could do that. You need to be consulting an attorney to see if it would even be worth your time to claim any of those--without an actual inventory of what was in the house, it's going to be your word against theirs--and it will be hard to know who is telling the truth.

What does it matter if the trust is a "cash cow to the trustee's children"--if they were named beneficiaries they are entitled to what they get.

Before you decide to probate you need to have some idea of what the assets being probated are worth. Yes, it may piss off the trustee, but he'll get over it in a few years. The wording in that trust is very vague, in that it seems to give no definite, specific time for the trustee to give you your share of the money unless that is stated elsewhere in the document.

If you got an accounting statement for the first year that the trust was in existence, THAT is the asset base ONLY FOR THE TRUST, and you should already know what that is. Are you saying that she had other assets that were not probated besides the personal possessions--did she even leave a will?

DANDY DON IN OKLAHOMA ([email protected])

 

[seniorjudge]

Talk to a good probate lawyer.

And after you talk to him, hire him.

 

[GaAtty]

GaAtty

In my opinion, you need to be a little more assertive. I understand that is hard if you are broke. However, as a beneficiary, you have a right to an accounting every year, and if the accounting is too vague or seems to be missing money, you can go to a court and have them order an accounting from the trustee. You can also do an action against the trustee to remove him if he is not dispensing the assets of the trust the way he should, or if his accounting has loopholes. This is what you are probably going to do. You should not let the trustee play games like he is doing. Any attorney who does it for you will probably ask for attorney's fees as part of the court action, as there is no reason why you should have to sue the trustee to make him do what he should do anyway. Unfortunately for you, these things must probably be done in the state where the trust was set up. However, if there is another beneficiary (sister?), she should split the cost of the attorney with you, as she will benefit, also. If you hire a good probate lawyer, maybe they could start with a letter to the trustee, and perhaps that alone will be enough to get some cooperation. It's worth a try, otherwise you will have to file a lawsuit in whatever court does probate in that state.

 

[bigdummy]

Clarification and more Questions

Dandy Don, GaAtty and Senior Judge,

I have a copy of the Will and before I ask any more questions I am going to paste part of it here and after you read it, let me know your thoughts. When I commented about the other benes having a cash cow, I was being a bit caddy because none of the benes are really supposed to get anything out of it until she dies. About 10 years ago I asked for 10,000 for college and I was told by the Trustee that he was unable...

Anyway read and let me know your thoughts, I appreciate it.

Article I and II are a given

Article III

I hereby will and direct that the Federal Estate and all other estate, inheritance, succession, legacy, death, transfer and similar taxes imposed upon or with respect to any property, or the interest of any beneficial therein, which is required to be included in my gross estates for any such tax purposes, whether or not such property, or interest therein, is a part of the assets of my probabe estate, shall be paid by my Executor out of my probate estate. Any and all such taxes described above shall be paid in the same manner as an expense of administration and no part of such taxes described above shall be recovered from, paid by, or apportioned between or among the recipients of, or those interested in any such property.

Article IV

I give, devise and bequeath my household furnishings and personal effects unto, WIFE, to be hers absolutely and forever.

Article V

I give, devise and bequeath all the rest, residue and remainder of my estate, both real, personal and mixed and wheresoever situated, unto my said attorney, SON IN LAW, as trustee. Such assets and property shall be held by my said Trustee in Trust for the following uses and purposes:

a) All of the net income from said Trust shall be paid to, WIFE, at convenient intervals, but at least quarterly, for and during her lifetime.

b) If, in the sole discretion and opinion of the Trustee, the net income from said Trust, together with income and assets know to the Trustee to be available to my wife, from other sources, is insufficient for her care, support and maintenance, then the Trustee may pay to or use and expend for the benefit of my said wife, so much of the principa of the Trust as in his sole and uncontrolled discretion he deems necessary for such purposes.

Article VI

a) Commencing with the date of death of my wife or is she shall predecease me, then commencing with the date of my death, I direct that my Trustee shal pay over and distribute to the then living issue of , DAUGHTER IN LAW, and the then living issue of my neice, MY MOTHER (deceased), percapita and not per stirpes, all of the then remaining principal of such Trust, together with all accrued and undistributed income, free and discharged from the Trust hereof, and this Trust shall then terminate.

b) PARAGRAPH pertaining to anyone under 21 at the time of her death....

c) During the time my Trustee holds such beneficiary's share in trust he may, in his sole and uncontrolled discretion, pay to or for the benefit of such beneficiary so much of the income and principal of such beneficiary's share as my Trustee in his discretion, believes is necessary for the continued health, education and general welfare of such bene. The decision of my Trustee shall be controlling in these matters, and any payment or distribution by him shall be a full discharge to the Trustee with respect thereto.

Article VII

I expressly direct that no part of my estate, whether principal or income, realty or personalty, while under the control of my said Trustee, his or her successors, or my Executor herinafter named, his successory or successors, shall ever be subject to transfer, assignment, sale, pledge, or anticipation by any beneficiary or remainderman hereunder, nor shall the interest of any beneficiary or remainderman, prior to the final distrubution thereof, be seized in any manner or held liable for the debts, contracts, obligations or engagements of any kind whatsoever of such bene or remander.

Article VII

I give unto said Trustee and Exec. or any administrator with the Will annexed, full power to sell, mortgage, mypothecate, invest, reinvest, exchange, manage, control and in any way use and deal with any and all property or my estate or trust during the administration thereof in such manner as my Trust and Exec in his sole discretion may deem best, without any application to court for leave or confirmation unless the same be expressly required by law.

LAST Article

JUST states that he names his son in law as trust and exec.



With regard to the Statements I recieve. The is a trust Statement that is only stocks and it goes through the beginning balance and all the transactions throughout the year and then the ending balance.

Also there is a statement (only one month) from the firm handling other monies, cash, money market accounts, etc. We only receive that one month a year. I called the firm one year to get a current statement for that month and the Trustee called me back and ripped my head off and told me I had no right to that informaiton. I didn't know that, I just wanted to see where the balance was.

Anyway did that help clarify?

 

[Dandy Don]

Conditions have been placed on this trustee--therefore he could not give you what you are entitled to from this trust until the wife dies. That condition must be met first--if he were to ignore that he would be guilty of breach of fiduciary duty.

The problem is that his primary goal is to take care of the wife, and that is understandable. It would have been better if he had set aside a separate amount to give to you so that you would not have to wait so long to get a bequest, but in this case, being left something is better than being left nothing at all.

DAND DON IN OKLAHOMA ([email protected])

 

[bigdummy]

One more question

Dandy Don,

thank you for reading this. One question.....what is the meaning of Art VI, c.? Doesn't that section allow him to access trust for any bene if he chooses?

Also, what is he permitted to do?

How would I find out the original inventory of the trust?

 

[seniorjudge]

Dandy Don,

thank you for reading this. One question.....what is the meaning of Art VI, c.? Doesn't that section allow him to access trust for any bene if he chooses?

Also, what is he permitted to do?

How would I find out the original inventory of the trust?

c) During the time my Trustee holds such beneficiary's share in trust he may, in his sole and uncontrolled discretion, pay to or for the benefit of such beneficiary so much of the income and principal of such beneficiary's share as my Trustee in his discretion, believes is necessary for the continued health, education and general welfare of such bene. The decision of my Trustee shall be controlling in these matters, and any payment or distribution by him shall be a full discharge to the Trustee with respect thereto.


Q: what is the meaning of Art VI, c.?

A: The trustee has the right to spend whatever he wants out of the trust for the beneficiary.


Q: Doesn't that section allow him to access trust for any bene if he chooses?

A: Yes.


Q: Also, what is he permitted to do?

A: What is who allowed to do about what?


Q: How would I find out the original inventory of the trust?

A: Ask the trustee.

 

[Dandy Don]

He won't be holding the beneficiary's share in trust until after the death occurs, because before then the beneficiary has no official share since it all belongs to the wife. Don't aggravate the trustee by asking more questions.

DANDY DON IN OKLAHOMA ([email protected])

 

[bigdummy]

Filings of Trust

I downloaded this off the Probate court website.

These are all the filings with regard to the Trust. Do they look normal?

I had too many characters so I stopped at 2000

05/20/1992WSP WORKSHEET PREPARED TRA- F.0.00
02/27/1992NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TRA 3 COMPL/OM
ACCOUNT0.00
04/22/1991OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT UPON CONS;TRUSTEE
12TH ACCT ALLWD.0.00
04/22/1991OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT UPON CONS;TRUSTEE
11TH ACCT ALLWD.0.00
04/22/1991WAC WAIVERS AND CONSENT0.00
04/22/1991RCT RECEIPT OF RESIDUE RECEIPT OF INCOME FLD.0.00
04/22/1991ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED TRUSTEE 12TH ANL ACCT
FLD.0.00
02/28/1991NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR 3 COMPL/OM ACCOUNT0.00
04/03/1990ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED TRUSTEE 11TH ACCT;0.00
03/01/1990NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR 02 3 COMPL/OM
ACCOUNT0.00
06/19/1989OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT TRUSTEE 10TH ACCT
ALWD-HRG0.00
06/19/1989PNH PUBLICATION/NOTICE OF HEARING PUBLICATION &
NOTICE OF HRG CONS; PRF SRV FLD0.00
04/21/1989Event Scheduled Event: OAH ORDER ALLOWING ACCOUNT
HEARING Date: 06/19/1989 Time: 9:00 AM Judge: 16987 THOMAS A.
MAHER Location: 1221 CITY-COUNTY BLDG.0.00
04/21/1989OAH ORDER ALLOWING ACCOUNT HEARING TRUSTEE 10TH
ACCT HRG0.00
04/21/1989RCT RECEIPT OF RESIDUE RECIEPT OF INCOME0.00
04/21/1989ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED TRUSTEE 10TH ACCT;NOT
HRNG FLD0.00
03/02/1989NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR 02 3 COMPL/OM
ACCOUNT0.00
09/14/1988OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT UPON CONS TRUSTEE
9TH ACC ALWD ACCT PERIOD CHANGED TO END ON DECEMBER 31
YEARLY.0.00
09/14/1988ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED TRUSTEE 9TH ACCT
FLD.CONS.0.00
09/14/1988OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT UPON CONS TRUSTEE
8TH ACC ALWD0.00
09/14/1988RCT RECEIPT OF RESIDUE RECEIPT OF INCOME0.00
09/14/1988ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED TRUSTEE 8TH ACCT
FLD.CONS.0.00
09/14/1988REI ORDER FOR REINSTATEMENT TR DATE REINSTATEMENT
GRANTED0.00
07/01/1988OAF ORD APPOINT SPECIAL FIDUCIARY ORD APPT SPECIAL FIDUCIARY EFFECTIVE AUGUST 5, 1988; $1,000
BOND; Attorney: (16721)0.00
07/01/1988SPO FIDUCIARY IS SUSPENDED ORD SUSPND TRUSTEE,APPT
SPF0.00
06/06/1988WSP WORKSHEET PREPARED TR WORK SHEET PREPARED0.00
06/06/1988REV REVIEW OF FILE TR DATE SET FOR FILE REVIEW0.00
04/01/1988WSP WORKSHEET PREPARED TR WORK SHEET PREPARED0.00
10/02/1987NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR NOTICE OF COMPLAINT
AND OM0.00
09/30/1987NOC NOTICE REQUESTED BY COURT TR NOTICE REQUESTED
BY COURT0.00
01/05/1987REF REFER TO OTHER SOURCE FOR INFO TYPE CHG FROM SE
TO TT0.00
06/06/1986OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT TRUSTEE 7TH ACC
ALWD;0.00
06/06/1986OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT TRUSTEE 6TH ACC
ALWD;0.00
06/06/1986OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT TRUSTEE 5TH ACCT
ALWD;0.00
06/06/1986GAL ORD APPOINT GUARDIAN AD LITEM GAL APPTD
RE:TRUSTEE 5TH, 6TH, & 7TH ACCT; Attorney: PEDERSEN, PAUL E
(24355)0.00
06/06/1986ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED TRUSTEE 5TH,6TH,& 7TH
ACC;CONS0.00
06/06/1986REI ORDER FOR REINSTATEMENT TR DATE REINSTATEMENT
GRANTED0.00
05/29/1986SPO FIDUCIARY IS SUSPENDED ORD SUSPND TRUSTEE
Result: EXO ORDER EXEMPLIFIED0.00
05/20/1986WSP WORKSHEET PREPARED TR WORK SHEET PREPARED0.00
05/20/1986REV REVIEW OF FILE TR DATE SET FOR FILE REVIEW0.00
05/02/1986REV REVIEW OF FILE TR DATE SET FOR FILE REVIEW0.00
04/01/1986WSP WORKSHEET PREPARED TR WORK SHEET PREPARED0.00
12/27/1984NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR NOTICE OF COMPLAINT
MAILE Attorney: (18499)0.00
10/17/1983OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT TR-4TH ACCT
ALWD;0.00
10/17/1983GAL ORD APPOINT GUARDIAN AD LITEM
RE:TR-4TH ACC0.00
10/17/1983WAC WAIVERS AND CONSENT CONS,GAL CONS FLD RE:TR-3
&40.00
10/17/1983OAC ORD ALLOW ACCOUNT ON CONSENT TR-3RD ACCT
ALWD;0.00
10/17/1983GAL ORD APPOINT GUARDIAN AD LITEM
RE:TR-3RD ACC0.00
04/28/1983EXT EXTENSION FIRST 28 DAY TR 30 DAY EXTENSION
GRANTED0.00
10/23/1982ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED T03,T04 ACCT FLD;0.00
09/16/1982NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR NOTICE SENT0.00
09/16/1982Event Scheduled Event: NOC NOTICE REQUESTED BY
COURT Date: 09/16/1982 Time: Judge: 90002 UNASSIGNED
Location:0.00
09/16/1982NOC NOTICE REQUESTED BY COURT TR NOTICE GENERATED
BY COURT0.00
04/02/1981ORD ORDER T01 & T02 ALWD;0.00
03/24/1981GAL ORD APPOINT GUARDIAN AD LITEM APPTD RE:T01 &
T020.00
03/24/1981ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED T02 FLD;CONS FILED0.00
03/12/1981NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR NOTICE SENT0.00
03/11/1981Event Scheduled Event: NOC NOTICE REQUESTED BY
COURT Date: 03/11/1981 Time: Judge: 90002 UNASSIGNED
Location:0.00
03/11/1981NOC NOTICE REQUESTED BY COURT TR NOTICE GENERATED
BY COURT0.00
04/29/1980ACC FIDUCIARY ACCOUNT FILED T01 FLD;CONS FLD0.00
09/28/1979NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR NOTICE SENT0.00
04/06/1979FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING MICH INTANG TAX RLS
Attorney: (16825)0.00
04/06/1979CLO ESTATE CLOSED - BOND CANCELLED EX DISC. BND
CANCL. EST CL. Attorney: L (16825)0.00
04/06/1979FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING 2 RCPTS0.00
04/06/1979ORD ORDER RES ASGN0.00
10/13/1978TAX INHERITANCE TAX RECEIPT FILED ADDL $94.600.00
10/05/1978FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING PART $11,655.000.00
10/05/1978INV INVENTORY TR INVENTORY FILED0.00
09/29/1978NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY TR NOTICE SENT0.00
07/26/1978IGTD Initial Petition Granted (SCAO)0.00
07/26/1978DUE ACCOUNT DUE DATE TR ACCOUNT DUE DATE0.00
07/26/1978ORD ORDER $25,000.0.00
07/26/1978BND BOND FILED TR BOND FILED0.00
07/26/1978ORD ORDER,TR DIR QUAL,BD.0.00
07/26/1978BND BOND FILED TR BOND FILED0.00
07/26/1978ORD ORDER BEQ UNDER PAR 1V DELIVERED &0.00
07/26/1978BND BOND FILED TR BOND FILED0.00
07/26/1978GAL ORD APPOINT GUARDIAN AD LITEM APTD RE:EFF0.00
07/26/1978BND BOND FILED TR BOND FILED0.00
07/26/1978ORD ORDER EFF ALWD;PTN ASGN SUB0.00
07/26/1978BND BOND FILED TR BOND FILED0.00
07/26/1978FAC FINAL ACCOUNT FILED EFF;CONS Attorney
07/26/1978BND BOND FILED TR BOND FILED0.00
07/26/1978BND BOND FILED TR BOND FILED0.00
07/26/1978BND BOND FILED TR BOND FILED0.00
12/31/1977DUE ACCOUNT DUE DATE TR ACCOUNT DUE DATE0.00
12/27/1977FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING NOT WID RIGHT ELEC;PRF
SRV0.00
12/14/1977FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING EX NEW BND $25,0000.00
12/08/1977INV INVENTORY EX INVENTORY FILED Attorney:
12/08/1977ORD ORDER BE RELEASED0.00
12/08/1977ORD ORDER UPON APPRVL EXISTNG BND TO0.00
12/08/1977ORD ORDER EX TO GIVE NEW $25,000 BND0.00
11/30/1977FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING PRF SRV CLM0.00
11/30/1977SPC STATEMENT PROOF/CLAIM
MCCLINTOCK,DONOVAN;$3,722.500.00
11/30/1977TRM CLAIMS TERM Attorney: (16825)0.00
11/23/1977FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING AFFID PUB(CLMS) Attorney:
(16825)0.00
11/07/1977NOT NOTICE OF DELINQUENCY EX NOTICE SENT Attorney:
(16825)0.00
09/30/1977FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING SDB INV;0.00
09/07/1977BND BOND FILED EX BOND FILED Attorney:
09/07/1977NOH NOTICE OF HEARING NOT HRG (CLMS) Attorney:
L (16825)0.00
08/31/1977GAL ORD APPOINT GUARDIAN AD LITEM PTN WILL;
Attorney: (16825)0.00
08/31/1977ORD ORDER WA; EX;$10,000 Attorney:
(16825)0.00
08/31/1977FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING GAL CONS; Attorney:
(16825)0.00
08/31/1977FLD MISCELLANEOUS FILING PTN
WILL;CONS;TEST;DPSTION; Attorney: (16825)0.00