who is watching the police?

What is the name of your state? Illinois

Recently, a tv new show has drawn attention to the fact that there is thousands of untested rape kits in police stations across the country. Some of these kits are even for rape/murders. The party line for not testing these rape kits is that there is no funding to do so...they cost $500 each to test.

I am shocked by these facts and I am wondering were the justice department is in this picture. I believe if thousands of hate crimes against an ethnic group went uninvestigated that there would be public outcry of civil rights violations. Is there not civil rights violations in not investigating these crimes as best they can?

lauras2u said:

What is the name of your state? Illinois

Recently, a tv new show has drawn attention to the fact that there is thousands of untested rape kits in police stations across the country. Some of these kits are even for rape/murders. The party line for not testing these rape kits is that there is no funding to do so...they cost $500 each to test.

I am shocked by these facts and I am wondering were the justice department is in this picture. I believe if thousands of hate crimes against an ethnic group went uninvestigated that there would be public outcry of civil rights violations. Is there not civil rights violations in not investigating these crimes as best they can?

Click to expand...

My response:

There are quite a few local governments and small towns that simply cannot afford the costs of these tests. These small towns (and even some large cities with tight budgets) cannot get the funding from the taxpayers. The taxpayers, for the most part, want their money going to the masses for education and social services, like trash pick up, police and fire department salaries, road repairs, construction, etc., and the list goes on and on.

The taxpayers don't want to spend their money on a specific person's rape - - they want their money spread around to do the most good for the largest number of people.

It's an unfortunate fact of life, and it's just one of those truths about tax dollars that really hurts.

For example, I want my tax money to pay for police salaries. I don't want my tax dollars to pay for Mary's rape kit, or the DNA test. That's because I want my tax dollars spread around, and not going to one, particular person.

Sure, I want the criminals behind bars. But, I also want my trash picked up, our children educated, the fires put out, and the roads being repaired.

Money goes just so far.

IAAL

perhaps there is more rapes and more work because they didn't test mary's rape kit. is there or is there not civil rights violations.

lauras2u said:

perhaps there is more rapes and more work because they didn't test mary's rape kit. is there or is there not civil rights violations.

Click to expand...

My response:

Yes, I agree. I wouldn't doubt that there are repeat offenders out there. As a matter of fact, it is a fact. Also, it's a fact that if the DNA test were done, we might be able to stop more of these crimes.

But, it's not as if NONE of the DNA tests are being performed. It's just that we, as taxpayers, can't afford to have ALL of them done.
Law enforcement can only do so much, and they must work within the confines of their budgets - - just like you and I do.

There are no Civil Rights violations that I can see.

Perhaps, you might want a special tax voted in, where the money collected goes to this specific purpose. All you can do is try to get it on your state or local ballot. If you get enough people to vote in a new tax increase, you'll have your wish. Just don't count on it.

IAAL

You seem hungup on the money issue. That is nothing but a smokescreen and is not central to this issue at hand here.

It used to be thought impossible and detrimental to give as much funding to girls sports and boys within the school and yet it was possible once title IX forced the issue.

We cannot take the myopic view and look only at the crime against the poor victim mary who just happens to be female we must look at the motivations of the crime. Mary wasn't chosen because of who she is but what she is...a woman. The perpertator doesn't want sex he wants to dominate and degrade her.

Rape clearly fits the definition of a hate crime: any of various crimes (as assault or defacement of property) when motivated by hostility to the victim as a member of a group (as one based on color, creed, gender, or sexual orientation).

It is a violation of civil rights to discriminate based on gender just the same as it is to discriminate based on color, creed or sexual orientation. So the question boils down to: are the police influence in how they do their jobs based upon the victim of the crime? I believe the answer is yes.

I got an idea lets all sell candy at the stop lights to fund testing of rape kits...sheesh.

My response:

You know, I was sincerely trying to be empathetic about the situation as you see it, and trying my best to understand your concern.

But, when you tear me a new sphincter when you say,

"You seem hungup on the money issue. That is nothing but a smokescreen and is not central to this issue at hand here."

but with that attitude, you then lose the very people who may try to help you, or the entire cause in general. Yours is not the only societal "cause" that needs a champion. Go to your City Hall meetings - - there's a lineup of people, each with an important cause that needs to be addressed.

I also believe there are other societal causes with at least as much importance as your "cause." Take for example, the homeless, the disadvantaged and hungry children, the mother and father who are losing their home, the murdered victim's families needing justice, and the list goes on, and on, and on.

So yes, money is an issue - - it may not be "central", but it's just as real. These DNA tests do, in fact, cost money and there's no denying that fact.

Perhaps, as a good samaritan, you'll go to your local police station and donate $500.00 for one DNA test to be performed. The police and that singular rape victim will thank you.

It's a start.

IAAL

A bit ironic...

IAAL is usually the one to be a bit harsh and put people in their place (and often rightfully so), but he tries to be nice and offer a genuine and honest answer to a question, and gets spanked by a poster.......

I would tend to agree with IAAL on the money issue, as well as the fact that there is no civil rights violation. You have no "civil right" to have a crime against you investigated.

Re: A bit ironic...

Bravo8 said:

IAAL is usually the one to be a bit harsh and put people in their place (and often rightfully so), but he tries to be nice and offer a genuine and honest answer to a question, and gets spanked by a poster.......

I would tend to agree with IAAL on the money issue, as well as the fact that there is no civil rights violation. You have no "civil right" to have a crime against you investigated.

Click to expand...

I fear what u say is true...the police are free to do their job as well as or as poorly as they want. We can look at the lynching of not so long ago and see that these too went univestigated.

Let me pose this question, is it discrimination to not investigate the lynching of a african american? Is it descrimination not to investigate the burning of a synogog?


Oh i think it is a good idea IAAL...do go right down and pay for that rape kit.

You seem to bank everything on discrimination. Your few posts indicate to me that you are the type that involves race into every equation. It's not always about race, gender, etc. Not everyone is out to get you.

If the police have failed to investigate those rapes, there is most likely one of three reasons:

1. As IAAL said, the money doesn't exist.
2. There is not enough evidence to proceed, and it owuld be a waste of money and time.
3. They are lazy.

Or maybe a combination of the three. I doubt it has anything to do with these crimes being committed against women as opposed to men. You are trying to create an atmosphere of discriminaion where one doesn't exist. You remind me of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (you support those racists don't you?)

The police have no legal obligation to investigate a crime. They do have to answer to the public though. For instance, I work for the residents of my township. If they are unhappy, they go to my superiors, the township supervisors (or borough/city council, mayor, etc....whom ever is in charge of the operation of the municipality). They will, if they feel the complaint is warranted, approach my Chief. My Chief, being my immediate supervisor, will rectify the problem.

So as you see, the police are accountable. Maybe not on a legal ground, but much the same way you are if you don't do your job correctly.

Bravo8 said:

You seem to bank everything on discrimination. Your few posts indicate to me that you are the type that involves race into every equation. It's not always about race, gender, etc. Not everyone is out to get you.

If the police have failed to investigate those rapes, there is most likely one of three reasons:

1. As IAAL said, the money doesn't exist.
2. There is not enough evidence to proceed, and it owuld be a waste of money and time.
3. They are lazy.

Or maybe a combination of the three. I doubt it has anything to do with these crimes being committed against women as opposed to men. You are trying to create an atmosphere of discriminaion where one doesn't exist. You remind me of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (you support those racists don't you?)


The police have no legal obligation to investigate a crime. They do have to answer to the public though. For instance, I work for the residents of my township. If they are unhappy, they go to my superiors, the township supervisors (or borough/city council, mayor, etc....whom ever is in charge of the operation of the municipality). They will, if they feel the complaint is warranted, approach my Chief. My Chief, being my immediate supervisor, will rectify the problem.

So as you see, the police are accountable. Maybe not on a legal ground, but much the same way you are if you don't do your job correctly.

Click to expand...

Speaking of personal attacts....

First let me find u some money.

The untested rape kids are from stranger rapes with no relationshiip with the victim. These are the serial rapists.
Now 20/20 helped with some of the expenses to test 50 of the 2,600 untested rape kits stored in the basement of the Baltimore police stations. Of the 50 tested they got DNA matches on 4 (see serial). One of these crimes was a rape/murder.

Let us assume the same percentage of DNA hits is maintained with additional testing. So for ever 100 kits tested there is 8 perpetrators identified. Of these perpertrators identified...all are serial rapists. We know this because thier DNA profile is in the system.

OK now these rape kits have not been tested so these men continue to rape...say over the next 2 years there is an additional 4 rapes reported to the police. This averages 1/4 reported rape per perpetrator per year...although i have to say this is a complete guess i don't think the figure is outragiously high.

The police come and investigate these 4 rapes in doing so they use 100 hr of police time. The police officers average wage is say $50 K a yr so that his how much money? $2500 maybe...but wait the city also pays thier benefits, social security, etc..the real cost to the city is $7500 if they use only 25 hrs for each reported rape.
Recently the city charged my mother $340 for ambulance ride to hospital....so let us add on $340 times 4 for $1360. The emergency room visit costs $300 including several tests and collection of the rape kit...cost of the purchase of the rape kit, $1200. So far we have over $10,000 in expenses over a 2 yr period of time. This is direct cost to the city..enough to pay for the testing of 20 rape kits.

the city pays to store the untested rape kits too...that takes time and money.

Now if i were to mention the Victims Compensation Act...add in lost wages, couciling costs, the advocate at the hospital...all for the victim and paid for with our tax dollars.


But wait...the victims worked and were productive citizens...loss of productivity sould be included. The husband, mother, kids etc. were all effected by the rape by a man that could have been in jail.

Believe me if i wanted to i could easily add up enough money to cover the testing of the rape kits. So let us drop money out of the picture finally.

Not enough evidence to proceed? what are u talking about...there is a rape kit. Untill that rape kit is processed there is something to porceed on isn't there?

They are lazy. Probibly.

They are prejudiced...probibly.

The problem with them having to answer to the public is that for the most part we just don't know what they are doing. Until 20/20 did the story i know i had no idea that the police were not testing rape kits. I would love to see more accountibility.

Personally, i think not testing these kits in indefensible. The police need to be policed and apparantly internally doesn't work in small departments.

Do you attend your city/borough/town council meetings? Do you actively involve yourself in the workings of your local officials (be they elected or appointed such as the police)? Do you actively pursue knowledge of what your local police are doing? If not, you have no right to bitch about it.

You are in Illinois. What does Baltimore have to do with your case? You can't compare what my department does against what the Los Angelos PD does.......it's not fair or accurate.

Your original post states "thousands across the country", but it's obvioulsy thousands in Baltimore.

Get your facts straight.

Your first and foremost mistake is listening to the media. Do you honestly think they report the news fair and unbiased? Or do they report the news with a twist to boost ratings? Remember they are a commercial business......out to make money, nothing else.

The money issue may not apply to the big city example you cite. But it is very real in small-town, USA. You mention the cost of *not* testing the kits, but we aren't talking about that. We are talking pure dollars and cents. It costs X dollars to test the kit. It akes no difference how much it costs society to NOT test the kit.

But let's drop that one for now........

Let's talk about evidence.......



You watch too much T.V.

Don't take that as an insult, but it seems to me that you don't realize how things are done in the real world of law enforcement. I don't have one of those magic computers to put "DNA evidence" in, and out spits the offender's info. For me to test a rape kit will take no less than 6 months, because my 7 man department in a town of 4k people can't afford the equipment, training, or personell to do it properly. We send it to the state lab.

In the Baltimore case, laziness on the part of someone is obviously responsible. That's just ridiculous to have those kits lying around.

I have a problem with your claim that they are prejudiced.

YOU ARE FISHING FOR EXAMPLES OF DISCRIMINATION WHERE NONE EXISTS.

You seem to want them to be biased so you can say, "Look at the bad prejudiced policemen!" That's not the case. Stupidity and laziness on their part doesn't make them prejudiced. You keep stretching that point, but have presented no evidence or argument to support it.

The flaw in your argument is two-fold:

1. You are taking big city law enforcement exmples, and then speaking like it occured in a "Small department".

2. You are assuming that what applies to one department applies to all.

Both are logical fallacies.

Bravo8 said:

Do you attend your city/borough/town council meetings? Do you actively involve yourself in the workings of your local officials (be they elected or appointed such as the police)? Do you actively pursue knowledge of what your local police are doing? If not, you have no right to bitch about it.

You are in Illinois. What does Baltimore have to do with your case? You can't compare what my department does against what the Los Angelos PD does.......it's not fair or accurate.

Your original post states "thousands across the country", but it's obvioulsy thousands in Baltimore.

Get your facts straight.

Your first and foremost mistake is listening to the media. Do you honestly think they report the news fair and unbiased? Or do they report the news with a twist to boost ratings? Remember they are a commercial business......out to make money, nothing else.

The money issue may not apply to the big city example you cite. But it is very real in small-town, USA. You mention the cost of *not* testing the kits, but we aren't talking about that. We are talking pure dollars and cents. It costs X dollars to test the kit. It akes no difference how much it costs society to NOT test the kit.

But let's drop that one for now........

Let's talk about evidence.......



You watch too much T.V.

Don't take that as an insult, but it seems to me that you don't realize how things are done in the real world of law enforcement. I don't have one of those magic computers to put "DNA evidence" in, and out spits the offender's info. For me to test a rape kit will take no less than 6 months, because my 7 man department in a town of 4k people can't afford the equipment, training, or personell to do it properly. We send it to the state lab.

In the Baltimore case, laziness on the part of someone is obviously responsible. That's just ridiculous to have those kits lying around.

I have a problem with your claim that they are prejudiced.

YOU ARE FISHING FOR EXAMPLES OF DISCRIMINATION WHERE NONE EXISTS.

You seem to want them to be biased so you can say, "Look at the bad prejudiced policemen!" That's not the case. Stupidity and laziness on their part doesn't make them prejudiced. You keep stretching that point, but have presented no evidence or argument to support it.

The flaw in your argument is two-fold:

1. You are taking big city law enforcement exmples, and then speaking like it occured in a "Small department".

2. You are assuming that what applies to one department applies to all.

Both are logical fallacies.

Click to expand...

************************************

I was betting you were in law enforcment.

I did not watch it on television I read it on the internet while researching how the hell the police can have such stupid ideas.

Yes there is 2,600 in Baltimore..there is 16,000 in NYC. There is thousands across the country...stop spouting and do your own damned research. Why dont' you ask los angeles if they have any and toss it in my face when they tell you each and every rape kit they get in is tested.

You are steering this way off the point.

Is if descrimination not to investigate a lynching?

Shaking head.......

"Recently, a tv new show has drawn attention to the fact that there is thousands of untested rape kits in police stations across the country"

You posted that. If your comment about Baltimore was a separate issue, then I think you could at least understand my confusion over the matter.



"The problem with them having to answer to the public is that for the most part we just don't know what they are doing. Until 20/20 did the story i know i had no idea that the police were not testing rape kits. I would love to see more accountibility.

Personally, i think not testing these kits in indefensible. The police need to be policed and apparantly internally doesn't work in small departments."


You also wrote that. Are we talking about a couple of big cities, or small-town USA? My comment about L.A. was to illustrate that you were intially talking about a big city (Baltimore) and then tried to tie it into your local PD. You subscribe to the "If it's true of one of the parts, it's true of the whole" philosophy. The whole being all of law enforcement.

Unfortunately, your theory is an elementary logical fallacy, easily recognized by even the most rudimentary of logic students.

Whether L.A. has untested rape kits has nothing to do with this argument. I don't know and frankly don't give a damn. That is the problem of citizens in Los Angelos.

The point was you cannot logically apply the actions of police in L.A. to the actions of police here, some 3000 miles away. That is what you are trying to do.

So don't tell me to do my research. Try to understand my post before attempting to chastise me.

You are obviously a misguided social activist who is fishing for some travesty of justice. You are a "rebel without a cause".

To answer your question...........

Motivation is the primary factor in determing "discrimination". If the police fail to investigate a "lynching" based upon the fact that the victim is black, then obviously racial discrimination played a part.

If the investigation is not completed for other reasons, then race has nothing to do with it. I personally don't appreciate the likes of you or your fellow naysayers assuming race or sex discrimination plays a part in everything.

That mindset is the single most destructive force in society today. Jesse Jackson, Al Shapton, and all the lesser known wanna-be's subscribe to the same train of thought.

Re: Shaking head.......

Bravo8 said:

"Recently, a tv new show has drawn attention to the fact that there is thousands of untested rape kits in police stations across the country"

You posted that. If your comment about Baltimore was a separate issue, then I think you could at least understand my confusion over the matter.

*****REPLY****
no baltimore was used in an example..talk about logical fallacies

******
You wrote:

Are we talking about a couple of big cities, or small-town USA? My comment about L.A. was to illustrate that you were intially talking about a big city (Baltimore) and then tried to tie it into your local PD. You subscribe to the "If it's true of one of the parts, it's true of the whole" philosophy. The whole being all of law enforcement.

Unfortunately, your theory is an elementary logical fallacy, easily recognized by even the most rudimentary of logic students.

*****REPLY

Hardly and elementary logical fallacy but i wouldn't expect u to know that. But in fact I don't care if it is a bog pr small city...no city should be allowed to not investigate a crime of this nature.

*****
YOU wrote:

Whether L.A. has untested rape kits has nothing to do with this argument. I don't know and frankly don't give a damn. That is the problem of citizens in Los Angelos.

The point was you cannot logically apply the actions of police in L.A. to the actions of police here, some 3000 miles away. That is what you are trying to do.

***REPLY

What i am saying is it is a problem not for those in LA nut for all of us...

****
You wrote:

To answer your question...........

Motivation is the primary factor in determing "discrimination". If the police fail to investigate a "lynching" based upon the fact that the victim is black, then obviously racial discrimination played a part.

If the investigation is not completed for other reasons, then race has nothing to do with it. I personally don't appreciate the likes of you or your fellow naysayers assuming race or sex discrimination plays a part in everything.

****REPLY****

I am very happy to see that u can answer a direct question. I am suprised that u do not see the similarities in these two issues. I doubt that you ever will so please allow others to comment on this issue

******

You wrote:

That mindset is the single most destructive force in society today. Jesse Jackson, Al Shapton, and all the lesser known wanna-be's subscribe to the same train of thought.

**** REPLY****

Click to expand...

Re: Re: Shaking head.......

"Hardly and elementary logical fallacy but i wouldn't expect u to know that. But in fact I don't care if it is a bog pr small city...no city should be allowed to not investigate a crime of this nature."

Once again, you feel the need to speak out of your anterior region.

So it's not a logical fallacy, eh? How about:

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/hasty.htm

or even better:

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/compos.htm (look at example number ii) or the opposite:

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/div.htm

So before you open your mouth about something you don't understand, follow your own advice..........

DO YOUR RESEARCH.