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Religious Discrimination

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hellodwg

Guest
NEW YORK STATE
Who: I am the mother of an 8 year old girl, a third grader who is in her second year with the same Brownie Girl Scout troop. The discrimination we are facing is by the Girl Scouts of Suffolk County, (Long Island, New York)

What: Religious Discrimination. The scheduling of our Girl Scouts Service Unit camping trip conflicts with when Rosh Hashanah falls this year, Friday evening through Sunday, September 26-28, 2003. Rosh Hashanah is one of the two highest holy days in the Jewish religion and when it falls on a school day, the public schools are closed in deference. No matter how my family observes this holiday, it is a time reserved for family and we cannot in good conscience justify sending our daughter on a camping trip for the weekend. This is not a weekend that should have been approved for such a large scale Girl Scout event and my daughter is very upset at not being able to be a part of this large camping trip. What the Girl Scouts of Suffolk County are calling a resolution to this remains discriminatory against any girls who are Jewish and is creating a “separate but equal” scenario which is most definitely separate but also most definitely not equal. Their resolution to this is that the service unit camping trip would go on as scheduled. My daughter’s troop as a troop alone, separate from the service unit, could try to get a reservation at the campsite for another fall weekend, but there was no guarantee of availablility. The troop leader at the troop level said that she would book another camping trip in the spring. But, that would be for my daughter’s troop only. My daughter’s troop is going to the service unit camping trip as the Girl Scouts of Suffolk County did not say that the date has to be changed to be inclusive for all, and for her to withdraw would not be fair to the rest of the troop. The service unit camping trip has a wide range of activities that involve all the girls from all the troops, many of these girls my daughter knows and is friendly with. This would be a totally different kind of experience than a separate camping trip with just my daughter’s troop, if all the girls in my daughter’s troop would even want to, or be able to, go on this second trip. This scheduling conflict completely contradicts what the Girl Scout organization is. “Girl Scouts of the USA is the world's pre-eminent organization dedicated solely to girls — all girls — where, in an accepting and nurturing environment, girls build character and skills for success in the real world. In partnership with committed adult volunteers, Girl Scouts cultivate their full individual potential. The qualities they develop in Girl Scouting — leadership, values, social conscience, and conviction about their own self-worth — serve them all their lives” http://www.girlscouts.org/about/

“Girl Scouts of Suffolk County's mission is to assist girls to achieve their highest potential and become a vital part of their community. Programs are educational and recreational and are based on ethical values that open a world of opportunities for youth working in partnership with adult volunteers. Girl Scouts provides a safe and nurturing environment where girls from all backgrounds develop the confidence, determination and skills needed to thrive in today's world. Girls learn to set and reach goals; improve decision-making skills; appreciate the diversity of others; and become leaders.” http://www.scgsc.org/aboutus.html

My reasons for pursuing this are based on my understanding that this incident is in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, specifically sections 201, 202 and 203. Although the Girl Scouts are a private
organization, they are non sectarian which means they do not have any one religious affiliation, and I feel that this would also fall under the "place of public accomodation" wording of Sec 201a.

I did contact the New York State Division of Human Rights and spoke with an investigator. The earliest appointment date I was able to be given to file a formal complaint is Thursday October 16. The appointment is after the camping trip though but I took it anyway because it is the next logical step of action. I would like to know what course of action an attorney could take with me at this point. I am looking for the legal leg to stand on that makes it something I can clearly and immediately fight using our legal system.
 


HomeGuru

Senior Member
hellodwg said:
NEW YORK STATE
Who: I am the mother of an 8 year old girl, a third grader who is in her second year with the same Brownie Girl Scout troop. The discrimination we are facing is by the Girl Scouts of Suffolk County, (Long Island, New York)

What: Religious Discrimination. The scheduling of our Girl Scouts Service Unit camping trip conflicts with when Rosh Hashanah falls this year, Friday evening through Sunday, September 26-28, 2003. Rosh Hashanah is one of the two highest holy days in the Jewish religion and when it falls on a school day, the public schools are closed in deference. No matter how my family observes this holiday, it is a time reserved for family and we cannot in good conscience justify sending our daughter on a camping trip for the weekend. This is not a weekend that should have been approved for such a large scale Girl Scout event and my daughter is very upset at not being able to be a part of this large camping trip. What the Girl Scouts of Suffolk County are calling a resolution to this remains discriminatory against any girls who are Jewish and is creating a “separate but equal” scenario which is most definitely separate but also most definitely not equal. Their resolution to this is that the service unit camping trip would go on as scheduled. My daughter’s troop as a troop alone, separate from the service unit, could try to get a reservation at the campsite for another fall weekend, but there was no guarantee of availablility. The troop leader at the troop level said that she would book another camping trip in the spring. But, that would be for my daughter’s troop only. My daughter’s troop is going to the service unit camping trip as the Girl Scouts of Suffolk County did not say that the date has to be changed to be inclusive for all, and for her to withdraw would not be fair to the rest of the troop. The service unit camping trip has a wide range of activities that involve all the girls from all the troops, many of these girls my daughter knows and is friendly with. This would be a totally different kind of experience than a separate camping trip with just my daughter’s troop, if all the girls in my daughter’s troop would even want to, or be able to, go on this second trip. This scheduling conflict completely contradicts what the Girl Scout organization is. “Girl Scouts of the USA is the world's pre-eminent organization dedicated solely to girls — all girls — where, in an accepting and nurturing environment, girls build character and skills for success in the real world. In partnership with committed adult volunteers, Girl Scouts cultivate their full individual potential. The qualities they develop in Girl Scouting — leadership, values, social conscience, and conviction about their own self-worth — serve them all their lives” http://www.girlscouts.org/about/

“Girl Scouts of Suffolk County's mission is to assist girls to achieve their highest potential and become a vital part of their community. Programs are educational and recreational and are based on ethical values that open a world of opportunities for youth working in partnership with adult volunteers. Girl Scouts provides a safe and nurturing environment where girls from all backgrounds develop the confidence, determination and skills needed to thrive in today's world. Girls learn to set and reach goals; improve decision-making skills; appreciate the diversity of others; and become leaders.” http://www.scgsc.org/aboutus.html

My reasons for pursuing this are based on my understanding that this incident is in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, specifically sections 201, 202 and 203. Although the Girl Scouts are a private
organization, they are non sectarian which means they do not have any one religious affiliation, and I feel that this would also fall under the "place of public accomodation" wording of Sec 201a.

I did contact the New York State Division of Human Rights and spoke with an investigator. The earliest appointment date I was able to be given to file a formal complaint is Thursday October 16. The appointment is after the camping trip though but I took it anyway because it is the next logical step of action. I would like to know what course of action an attorney could take with me at this point. I am looking for the legal leg to stand on that makes it something I can clearly and immediately fight using our legal system.
**A: like the Boy Scouts of America, the Girl Scouting organization is a private group. Courts have upheld that the Boy Scouts is a private group and can ban gays. Sorry to say, but you have an uphill battle.
 
H

hellodwg

Guest
Thank you for responding. Yes, I have seen that ruling in my research. But can my angle be that the stated policies of the Boy Scouts are exclusionary
http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc&c=fs

and the stated policies of the Girl Scouts are inclusionary
http://www.scgsc.org/

so the Girl Scouts of Suffolk County are essentially going against their own policies as a private organization. The contradiction against their stated policies is discriminatory and against the civil rights act, etc...

Also, the Girl Scouts are non sectarian, not affiliated with any religious organization. The Boy Scouts are often sponsored or chartered by churches or other religious groups.

I'm not trying to play "devil's advocate", I'm just trying to explore absolutely every possible angle where I could possibly have a solid legal case. Feedback and info. is SO welcomed!
 
H

hellodwg

Guest
This goes along with my slant about the stated policies of the organization. Below it is the issue you brought up about being a private organization.

1. What did the Supreme Court say in Dale v. Boy Scouts of America?
James Dale was a 20-year-old Eagle Scout and assistant scoutmaster in New Jersey, an “exemplary scout” by all accounts. BSA officials revoked his membership in the Boy Scouts when they saw a newspaper article discussing the needs of gay young people that did not mention Scouting but quoted Dale
and described him as co-president of a gay student group at Rutgers University. When he asked why his membership was revoked, BSA headquarters told him that Scouting “specifically forbids membership to homosexuals.”Dale sued the BSA under a New Jersey law that prohibits “discrimination ... in
places of public accommodation” on the basis of sexual orientation as well as race, religion, and other personal characteristics. The New Jersey Supreme Court agreed with Dale that the BSA is subject to this law and therefore could not
kick Dale out of the organization simply because he is gay.
The United States Supreme Court narrowly reversed, ruling 5 to 4 that the BSA had a “right to associate” under the First Amendment that would be violated if the
BSA were required to allow Dale to remain in the organization. The Supreme Court deferred to the BSA's assertion that the organization considered “homosexual conduct” inconsistent with the values expressed by the terms “morally straight” and “clean” in the Boy Scout Oath, and to the BSA's lawyers' argument that James Dale's “presence in the Boy Scouts would ... force the
organization to send a message, both to the youth members and the world, that the Boy Scouts accepts homosexual conduct as a legitimate form of behavior.”
http://www.aclu-sc.org/docs/BSAfinal.pdf

Date: 28 June 2000
The Boy Scouts of America was held not to be a place of public accommodation under federal law in Welsh v. Boy Scouts of America, (7th Cir. 1993). http://369.columbus.oh.us/scouting.d/faq.d/issues.d/bsa.private.2.html
 
H

hexeliebe

Guest
In the final analysis you will lose. As HG told you and as the courts have upheld, the Girl Scouts are a private organization. They are not accountable for the same standards of conduct and may exclude anyone they wish.

They have offered you an alternative. Your choice is either to accept it or not. Stay in the organization or not.

Regardless of how fair it is to your daughter, would you feel better if your religious beliefs were accommodated at the expense of others who held differing beliefs?
 
H

hellodwg

Guest
Of course not. What would be the correct thing would be for them to uphold their stated policies.

"Our mission is to assist girls in achieving their highest potential and in becoming vital parts of today's multicultural society. Girls Scouts learn to set and reach goals, improve decision making skills, appreciate the diversity of others, and become leaders."

http://www.scgsc.org/

And from another current lawsuit against the Girl Scout Organization
http://diversityingirlscouts.org/faq.html
"We believe the Girl Scout organization is a ‘public accommodation’ The Girl Scouts claim that membership is open to any girl that will take the oath and pay dues. We hope that the courts will conclude that the GSUSA cannot hide behind its ‘private membership organization’ veil. The GSUSA is engaged in the business of buying and selling Girl Scout cookies in excess of $500 million per year, receives widespread public funding, serves the public, and gets financial assistance from the government by virtue of their tax exempt status. However, ‘winning’ to us means whether by court decision or otherwise, that the Girl Scout organization adopts and implements effective policies to prevent discrimination and handle complaints relating thereto."

I must thank you, because with all the research I have been doing this evening, I have a great deal of helpful information. I have already been given an appointment date with the New York State Division of Human Rights to file a formal complaint and my next step was to gather even more information and research so I am as informed as possible when selecting a lawyer to assist me in this.
 

ellencee

Senior Member
hellodwg
As a former girl scout troop leader, let me say that you are twisting the 'rules' and the 'mission' of the GSA to meet your unrealistic expectations that the world stops on holidays that you choose to observe.

Your daughter has the opportunity to share Rosh Hashanah with the other girls at the camp. You have the opportunity to go with her on the camping trip and assist her in sharing this with the other girls and other troops.

GSA supports religious differences and the tolerance of different religions and encourages the girls to learn about life-aspects that are important to the troop members.

GSA could have scheduled the trip for Easter or Christmas or whenever they wanted to do so. It is not mandatory for any girl to attend a camping trip or event. It may be mandatory to complete a certain event in order to complete a badge, but there are even alternate activities for girls whose family belief-systems prevent participation in a 'required' event.

THE GSA are bending over backwards to take an entire troop on an extra overnight camping trip just so your daughter can have the experience. These leaders have taken extra classes in scouting, in first aid, in wilderness training, etc. just to be able to take these girls overnight on a camping trip. These leaders may have to take these classes again to meet the requirements of taking the troop a year from now.

I've been to those classes; even though I am an RN, I had to endure basic first aid classes. The wilderness and camping training was so boring and horrific, I kept hoping a bear would come and try to eat us. I dreaded the initial classes and the retakes; but, I went, just as the other leaders did, so that we could take the girls camping overnight.

I don't appreciate your trying to take legal action against this fine organization that continues to adapt to the changing needs of girls and young women.

Either send your daughter or don't. It's your choice.

EC
 
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hexeliebe

Guest
Either send your daughter or don't. It's your choice.
OH MY GAWD! Is this the Black Hole of FreeAdvice? Am I getting high on residual THC from the 60s? Is this dejaVu all over again?

Ellencee bites back :D:D:D
 
H

hellodwg

Guest
Nope, the world doesn't stop but all the public schools in the New York City, Long Island and Westchester areas close in deference to this very important, religious holiday. Same as everything closes for Christmas and Easter. Our local little league always has opening day the same Sunday in April every year. They had to delay it by a week this past spring because Easter fell on that Sunday. That was the correct thing to do. A soccer league in Seattle published an apology to an oversight in scheduling a picture day on the Sat. of Rosh Hashanah for this year. They rescheduled the picture day. "PHOTO DAY
Photo Day has been rescheduled to Saturday, Oct. 4. We apologize for our original oversight in scheduling this activity on the Jewish holiday Rosha Shana. www.magnoliasoccerclub.org

Some other interesting information I have gathered in all my research

http://diversityingirlscouts.org/faq.html#whyattack


http://www.scoutingforall.org/aaic/031301.shtml
 

ellencee

Senior Member
All your research is nonapplicable. An attorney has told you all you needed to know or to have posted to you in response: it is a private organization.
You have the right to bitch about it and apparently you have done quite a good job of doing so.
I'm sure next year and from now on, the GSA will make every effort to avoid having to hear this from you again and will avoid scheduling such an activity on such an important day, even if it means the girls in your area do not get a camping trip if the camps have no other available date.
Well done.

EC
 
H

hellodwg

Guest
Wow, I do have to thank you all for your support and encouragement. Best wishes.
 

stephenk

Senior Member
has any other Jewish family protested the camp schedule?

You know most Temples have their own girl scout and boy scout troops. Maybe you should look into it.
 
H

hellodwg

Guest
One person can make a difference!

The Girl Scouts of Suffolk County, Long Island, New York ultimately did the right thing. The service unit camping trip originally scheduled for the weekend that Rosh Hashanah is this year has now been changed to a weekend free of holidays in May. Unfortunately this did not occur at the local level, it took intervention from the Girl Scouts of the USA. Thankfully the Girl Scouts of the USA took a stand against discrimination and this camping trip is open to all as it should have been from the start. The Girl Scouts are meant to be an inclusive organization and I am thrilled that they are standing by their mission statement. I have a long history with the Girl Scouts, and filing a formal complaint against them with the New York State Division of Human Rights and then filing a lawsuit, was not the direction I wished to go. Thankfully I didn't have to.

The local support this has received here on Long Island and in the New York City area has been wonderful. More than one girl was affected by this oversight in scheduling but it takes one person with strength, determination and an iron will, to confront the issues to help correct a wrong. I had contacted the Girl Scouts of the USA a couple of times, but then also contacted other local Girl Scout councils, various local media sources, and some key civil rights/anti discrimination agencies.

This forum has been invaluable too. The interesting tones of feedback I received from some, fed my determination to find out all I could about the law, legal precedents, and arguments that were not used in the Boy Scouts' case that opened the door for battling this one. I then was able to secure a lawyer who would have been powerful in the uphill battle I knew I would face in court. But again, I am grateful that this issue has been put to rest in a manner that reaffirms was the Girl Scouts stand for; inclusiveness, unity, tolerance, acceptance, leadership.
 

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