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no contact order/ polygraph test

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J

jacked

Guest
What is the name of your state? Oregon

Here's my situation. A month ago my girlfriend and I got into an argument over "nothing" and I ended up breaking the phone during the yelling. There was no physical abuse as that is not my nature, but the cops were called because of the noise. I was charged and convicted of interfering with a police report and now I have to take Domestic Violence classes. Along with that, there is a "no contact order" so I cannot be around the "victim" (my girlfriend) which we both agree is retarded. The judge and my PO said if I violate the "no contact order" I will go to jail. We also live together.

Apparently the classes I have to take use polygraph tests to see if you have had contact with the "victim". Financially among other reasons, there is no way I cant NOT be around her. My PO says if I go to these classes for at least 90 days, I can legally be around the "victim" with my PO and the class's permission. My lawyer says don't worry about the polygraph test because they cannot use it in court. He also said not to tell on myself ;) My lawyer said the only way I'd get caught is if someone could prove I had had contact with her like the cops. I know these Domestic Violence laws are there to protect actual "victims", but this has gone too far. My girlfriend and I hardly even argue! What should I do? Keep a low profile? Any advice on the polygraph? My lawyer says that the person giving the test will try to get me to admit to something and thats how they "get" you. He also said I can get in trouble if I deny to take the test, but not if I "lie" cause they cant use it in court. HELP!!
 


CdwJava

Senior Member
Well, as of right now you face arrest for living with her. If the two of you want to be that dumb (primarily you since it is YOU who will be going to jail) that's your business. And just one more reason why police officers get frustrated with domestic violence cases.

And your attorney is right, the polygraph canot be used against you ... BUT! Your replies to the questions asked CAN! If the examiner does not work for your attorney, or his position does not otherwise fall into a class of people that are exempt by OR statute from being called to testify in court, he could testify as to your statements. That COULD cause problems.

My recommendation (which I am sure you will ignore) would be to move out and follow the rules until you complete all your programs. The other option is for her to go back to court and see about dropping the order. In CA victims can generally do that.

What you risk right now is jail at the drop of a hat. If you burn the toast and she gets angry, all she has to do is pick up the phone and WHAMMO! You're in jail.

Good luck ... you're gonna need it.

Carl
 
J

jacked

Guest
Carl, first of all thank you for responding to my post. Please don't assume I'm going to ignore your reccomendation. I wouldn't be asking advice if I didn't really want it, no matter how miserable it may make my life. I do want to do the right thing and follow my programs accordingly. I have actually already made arrangements to live somewhere else until I get the ok to come back home. The problem is that I'm not even supposed to talk to her on the phone or ANYTHING. We need to communicate sometimes you know? I think I'd be able not to see her, but we'd have to talk. I'd get bills in the mail or important phone calls...........she'd have to tell me.

Unfortunately here in OR the domestic violence laws are so strict (which is good for real victims) that the "victim" cannot drop the order or the charges.

I just think that things were blown way out of proportion. I mean, we are cut off from each other cause I broke the phone and if I violate, I go to jail. Seems to be a tad bit extreme.

Thank you again for taking the time Carl, I do appreciate it.
 

JETX

Senior Member
Sorry, but I simply can't believe that all that you claim has happened (arrest, charge, etc.) happened SOLELY due to your "breaking the phone". Clearly, there is far more to this than you are telling.

In any case, the bottom line is that you have been given instructions by the court as a result of YOUR conduct. It is now up to you to choose to follow the instructions and get the benefit (probation) or to not, and suffer the consequences (presumably, incarceration). And there are lots of ways that the police and court can find out about your violation(s).

So, take your chances if you want. Your choice. I will add one thing that you need to consider in making your decision..... your attorney is an idiot if he really thinks that the results of the 'anger management' lie detector can't be used (by your PO and the courts) to determine your violation of probation. This is NOT an issue of criminal guilt or innocence, but of compliance with a court order.
 
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CdwJava

Senior Member
Jet,

Actually, if OR has a law similar to CA, then interfering or preventing someone from reporting a crime to the police (or dial 9-1-1) is a criminal act and can be domestic violence related. Breaking the phone in anger may not fall under the same guidelines, but breaking it in order to prevent the reporting of a crime, is.

Carl
 
J

jacked

Guest
Jetx,

First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I really do appreciate it. It would be useless for me to post only half of my story. I don't know why you would assume that I'm leaving something out. If you don't know the specific law for the state in which I reside, your advice does not do me any good. Thats why in every post it asks to include your state.

Like CdwJava said, breaking the phone does constitute domestic violence in CA as well as OR. As far as the polygraph, they CANNOT be used in court as evidence in OREGON! The courts and my PO have to have proof of me violating my conditions, they cant count on the polygraph. I could however be in violation if I choose not to take the polygraph.

Again JETX thanks for your input, but please don't assume people aren't telling the truth just because you don't know the law in their state.
 

JETX

Senior Member
CdwJava said:
Jet,

Actually, if OR has a law similar to CA, then interfering or preventing someone from reporting a crime to the police (or dial 9-1-1) is a criminal act and can be domestic violence related. Breaking the phone in anger may not fall under the same guidelines, but breaking it in order to prevent the reporting of a crime, is.

Carl
I agree. And also feel (from experience) that there is more to this than stated. I handled numerous Domestic Violence cases (when an LEO) and can't recall any cases where we arrested a participant SOLELY for 'breaking the phone', even if to prevent a 911 call. I have to think that something else occurred on scene that precipated the officers taking an aggressive position of arrest and charges.... and especially, the issuance of a 'no contact order'. I simply don't see that as being reasonable judicial processes based on the limited 'violation' described by the writer.
 
J

jacked

Guest
JETX said:
I simply don't see that as being reasonable judicial processes based on the limited 'violation' described by the writer.
EXACTLY!!!!!!! That's my point. That's why I said things were blown out of proportion! I realize that the police deal with more idiots than not, but not all are idiots! There are exceptions to every rule..........the rules prove the exceptions. JETX~ Just because charges have been pressed, doesn't mean the "subject" is lying. The state of Oregon pressed charges even though she did not want to.

I do know that I have to deal with MY ACTIONS, but in this case it's a big waste of everyone's time.
 

JETX

Senior Member
jacked said:
The state of Oregon pressed charges even though she did not want to.
*** Yep.... and rightfully so. There were simply too many cases where the victim (after hearing "Oh, honey!! I sure am sorry and you know that will never happen again!" or some other crap), and refused to testify. Then the next time the abuse occurred (and they usually do re-occur), the victim is either subjected to worse abuse or in some cases, killed by the abuser!! Because of the high chance for further abuse, most states passed laws several years ago removing the abuse victim from the prosecution. This was done to protect the victims.

I do know that I have to deal with MY ACTIONS, but in this case it's a big waste of everyone's time.
You may feel that is the case at this time, but I guarantee that you will think twice in the future if this same type scenario were to arise again, huh??
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
The reason that the state takes control of these cases is because of the unique dynamic present between the parties ... the abused apologizes, the victim feels they need the suspect or cannot get along financially or emotionally without them, and they make nice again. We have also found that the children of couples in abusive relationships grow up and have a high tendency to fall into the exact same relationships (be it victim or suspect) - they learn that this is normal dating and relationship behavior.

Unfortunately, the response to this heinous crime has been to almost turn the concept of justice on its head by effectively pronouncing guilt at the outset. It was even proposed in CA some years back that the state prosecute abusers and not permit or allow the spouse/victim to take the stand at all if they were going to defend the suspect! Thus turning the idea of confronting one's accuser completely topsy-turvy.

It also has lent itself to false or exaggerated claims that lead to an arrest.

But! The party who gets a false claim against him (or her ... but usually him) is almost always aware what he faces if he remains in the relationship - yet he chooses to stay. So, he is not completely blameless even if he might not be guilty of the crime, he usually did have a chance to bail out.

Domestic violence is a heinous act. And the laws reflect that general belief - and sometimes they go overbaord to some degree. But, they go overboard in an effort to help protect the victim - even if it means some inconvenience to the other party.

Suffering a criminal protective order for preventing a call for help may be a little over the top to some, but I can certainly see how and why it might be issued. I don't know if I have ever seen one issued for that crime without the request of the protected party, but I suppose it could happen even here.

Bottom line is, this relationship is a tightrope ... one false step and its time for the orange jumpsuit.

Carl
 

JETX

Senior Member
Carl.... I agree to a point.
Most officers that I know (and myself included) would NOT take action against either party in the relationship without some (substantial?) evidence of violence. This usually consists of some physical contact (scratches, bruises, cuts, etc.) on the victim. Simply responding to a report of domestic violence and finding a phone being broken would NOT be sufficient to bring charges.... especially including 'domestic violence' classes, probation and a 'no contact order'. This leads me (still!) to believe that there is more to this story than is being told.
 

JETX

Senior Member
jacked said:
JAs far as the polygraph, they CANNOT be used in court as evidence in OREGON! The courts and my PO have to have proof of me violating my conditions, they cant count on the polygraph. I could however be in violation if I choose not to take the polygraph.
In reviewing the thread, I see that I overlooked responding to the above:
Clearly, there is some confusion on your part (or your 'attorney'). Granted, polygraph results are not admissable to determine guilt or innocence of a crime. I have to believe that is what you are referring to. However, the results of a court ordered polygraph can certainly be used by the court to determine whether you are in compliance with the order of the court or not. And if the results show that you are untruthful in following the order, they can revoke your probation. Probation is a PRIVILEDGE, not a right.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
JETX said:
Carl.... I agree to a point.
Most officers that I know (and myself included) would NOT take action against either party in the relationship without some (substantial?) evidence of violence. This usually consists of some physical contact (scratches, bruises, cuts, etc.) on the victim. Simply responding to a report of domestic violence and finding a phone being broken would NOT be sufficient to bring charges.... especially including 'domestic violence' classes, probation and a 'no contact order'. This leads me (still!) to believe that there is more to this story than is being told.
True. Simply having a broken phone would not do it. And maybe I'm infering from the original post what is likely the case ... officers responded to a call of a fight or loud argument (maybe even a 9-1-1 call being cut off) and find the two people there. The male is heated and angry, the female teary-eyed. They admit to an argument, and it slips out that he broke the phone to keep her from calling the police or calling anyone else for help ... or, it is infered.

In CA that might be all that is necessary for an arrest ... maybe. Without knowing what the officers at the scene knew, I couldn's say for sure. But, up until about 1993 or 1994, I believe, pulling a phone from a wall was a felony in CA! I used to arrest people for this all the time in DV related situations when we suspected we'd be back later. It resolved the matter and we did not have to decide on the primary aggressor - only the crime before us.

There may well be more to the situation. My point is that there does not necessarily HAVE to be more to it ... at least as the law goes out here. Sometimes (depending on jurisdiction) the courts are very picky about DV cases. I used to work in one (San Diego County). In my current county, getting a prosecution for DV can be a Herculean effort.

Carl
 
J

jacked

Guest
CDWJAVA Carl,

Once again, thank you for responding to my post. Even if my current situation is unfavorable, I know I need to move forward in my program and put this behind me.

What really gets me is people such at JETX DONT LISTEN or DONT WANT TO BELIEVE that someone (ME) is being HONEST!! If I wasn't being honest then I'd be getting the wrong advice from you people who know the law (or obviously don't). I didn't post a question just to argue what I post is the truth or not.

After reading through the different forums here on this site. It seems to me that most of the people that respond are just doing this out of entertainment and they really aren't out to help people. CDWJAVA, thanks for responding without all the ridicule.
 
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