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Doubt whether speed measurement was feasible at all

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Dolfo

Guest
What is the name of your state? MINNESOTA

I am asking for your help and advice regarding a what I perceive unjust speeding ticket I received.

On May 30, I was driving on a 55mph two-lane country road in MN behind a another car in a long right hand bend going up towards a hillcrest.
A sherrif appeared on the crest approaching on the other lane and after he passed us, he turned on the lights, turned around and stopped me.
He said I was going 74, "closing in on that car in front of you". I was sure I was within some margin of tolerance of the speed limit, definetly I did not even feel like hitting the brakes when I saw him. It was for sure less than a second that he could have aimed at me, due to the hillcrest and me being behind the other car (closing in as he said himself) on the inner side of a bend, the officer coming on the outer. I simply could not believe he could have even measured me, with a closing speed of 129mph according to his statement, so I asked to see it and he showed me his display. Of course that could have been the last measurement he did before meeting me. He was alone in his car, so he would have to drive in the bend and operate his radar at the same time. I just cannot believe him. For your interest, I drive a Porsche, so I am used to getting stopped for nothing or 5mph over the limit.

The court date is June 21.

Is it worth trying to find out about whether this could have been technically possible at all, to go to court and try to avoid an insurance increase ? I had only 1 ticket in the last 3 years which had no effect. How can I find out if he was within his jurisdiction ?
 


CdwJava

Senior Member
If he was operating a dash-mounted radar, he didn't need to manually manipulate it in most cases. These devices function automatically. So you CAN argue that it was not technically feasible, but you may get blindsided when he says it can be used hands-free.

And another thing you need to learn about cops - we get used to driving with our hands occupied. Heck, where I used to work the story going around was that you would not get to clear probation until you could manage to drive a pursuit, use the radio, and not spill a drop of coffee or lose the burrito! :)

Well, that wasn't true, but you'd be surprised how much we can do with elbows, knees and hands.

As for your question of jurisdiction, that should be made during the initial case by the officer. How it works out here is you say something like, "On the date and time in question I was operating a marked XXXX police vehicle with functioning emergency lights and in full uniform. At approximately XXXX hours I observed the defendant vehicle [insert location] in the city of XXXX within the County of XXXX. ...

It may be different where you are, but I imagine it is similar - the court has to have jurisdiction.

If all you have is an attempt at making a technical argument or a jurisdiction question, you had best be ready to pay the fine. And unless you want to shell out big dollars for an attorney experienced in defending radar cases, you probably will not prevail.

You may just have to suck it up. But, if you truly believe you are innocent, then by all means, see what you can do!

Carl
 
D

Dolfo

Guest
Guess I could also be a cop for that part...

Because I am used to driving a manual in european small-street downtown city traffic while being on the cellphone ;)

How long does it take you to make a valid measurement ? If the radar is on all the time fanning out a sector, how does he know which vehicle he measured, it must take some time, I would guess 3 secs to determine that with certainty. Just a blimp of some speed reading showing up cannot be valid ? Now I am not saying he measured the car in front of me, I do not know that car's speed and I doubt it was 74 either. I am saying he just cannot have confidently measured me. For that he would have had to see me atleast from 200 yards on if I assume he tried to track me the instant I came in his view.
In court, does this just play out like: he says he measured me and that is it. ?
That is pretty unfair. I read that I can plead to have the fine changed to a speed less than 10 over and pay that without it affecting my insurance. If I am honest, I think that is where I was with my speed, absolutely not more than 65 and most likely not 55.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
The radar operates at the speed of light ... three seconds would be far more than it would need to get the two signal returns I believe they need to adequately assess the speed of your vehicle. Specifically HOW it operates is a question I cannot answer as I have no clue as to what kind of radar the officer was operating.

A radar is a simple tool. You point it, pull the trigger, and Voila!, you have a reading! If its on auto mode, it essentially keeps pulling the trigger by itself. But, again, what and how this one works, I couldn't say because I don't know what he was doing.

Also, radar operators (at least in CA) are trained to visually estimate the speed of the vehicle they are observing. They use the radar to confirm that visual estimation of the speed. To be certified with radar they have to test on, I believe (as I am not certified to run radar), ten out of ten vehicles where their visual estimation was within 2 MPH of the radar clocked speed.

I may be a little off in the certification numbers, but its something like that.

And its likely you could plead to the lesser speed, but that depends on the court.

Good luck.

Carl
 
D

Dolfo

Guest
Can I end up paying more in court if I do not use a lawyer and behave well ? In Europe I would pay the court operating costs.
I know radar uses the speed of light, I meant more that a confident measurement usually consists of reproducibility or constant value, i.e. in this case show the same speed for 3 seconds or so.
Can I go there any day or does it have to be the date they specified ? Any other tips ? I do not hope the officer would not appear - they have not much else to do in MN ;) I will leave the country in about a year or so, but even for that time I do not want an increased insurance or a fine that I do not feel justified.
About judging the speed, my car looks fast while standing ;) Just kidding, I am sure they are trained, he also was polite and so was I - no issue with that.
 

lwpat

Senior Member
"And another thing you need to learn about cops - we get used to driving with our hands occupied. Heck, where I used to work the story going around was that you would not get to clear probation until you could manage to drive a pursuit, use the radio, and not spill a drop of coffee or lose the burrito!

Well, that wasn't true, but you'd be surprised how much we can do with elbows, knees and hands."

I just told everybody that I was ambidicktrous.
 

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