Community writing copyrights & other fun forum stuff.

Hello,
I have a bit of a stumper. A little background information is probably in order first.

As per the rules, I am located in Minnesota; the other board administrators are located in Canada, Eastern US, and Australia. The website is being hosted in the US, though I am uncertain of the datacenter's location.

I am one of five guys who run a small Star Wars fan-fiction and RPG website. Basically, people post their writing with a Star Wars theme, and it integrates into our continuing timeline, which starts some thirty years after the events in the film 'Return of the Jedi'.

We have had, in the past, a disgruntled member edit out the content of almost a hundred of his posts. We really wouldn't mind that much (read: we'd be ticked, but not too ticked) if he only did it to stories in which he only participated, however given the 'community interaction' aspect of our forums, at times almost a dozen people can be working on the same story. Removing his part hurts the overall reading of the story, since things don't make sense. He was typically a key player as well, with very detailed and word-heavy posts.

As a result of this action, the board Staff decided that doing this would result in an immediate and permanent IP ban from our forums. The offending person was banned, and we managed to retrieve a few of the destroyed stories (he had threatened to do this before he did it, and we backed them up).

Another disgruntled member (call him Y), some time later, threatened to sue another member (call him X) if X didn't cease quoting Y in one of his stories. There was a big stink, and Y posted highly personal information about X (home address, etc) in a public forum. Y was banned for this.


Jump forward about six to nine months. Our community has switched forum software, a major deal since we are now 'on our own' so to speak. Our previous host hosted the board (and thousands of other boards), and dealt with any legal issues that came up. Since we now have complete control over our community, including the terms of use, we want to write up a little agreement for our members that will protect us against legal action. I drafted the following bit of text with the help of a fellow admin, and I would like you guys to take a look at it and tell me what dumb things I omitted, or what things we can't do, or how we could do this better. It's in a FAQ format, because it's intended to go in our FAQ. We also want to include something like this in our end user agreement.

Copyrights
Information about copyrights and TRF.

Who owns my writing when I post it on TRF, me, right?
Yes. The work you post on TRF is yours, as if you had kept it on your hard drive, with one exception.

When you post work in the Battlegrounds, it becomes part of TRF's timeline and history. In the past we have had disgruntled members go and edit out all the content they posted in the Battlegrounds, thus rendering a great many people's work null and void. This is not allowed. The copies of text you post on TRF become the property of the community as a whole. We ask that you leave these copies on TRF as they are, thus preserving our history. You can publish your writing, edit it, modify it, sell it, whatever you want, but by posting on TRF you agree to let your work be displayed in whatever manner the Staff sees fit.

It should also be noted that all content on TRF is copyrighted, both by the authors, and by TRF as a whole. You may not copy any of the work on this forum without the express permission of the owner of said work.

Will TRF ever sell my writing?
By posting your work on TRF you agree to let that work be used in promotional purposes, used on the index page, and for other regular forum activities. If the opportunity comes up in which the work of a TRF member could be published or syndicated, the owner of the work will be contacted before anything happens. We will not sell out your work without your prior notice, and if you don't want it published we probably won't do so.

But I want my work removed! Remove it or I'll sue you!
If you want your work removed contact a Staff member and something can be worked out. Flying off the handle and saying silly things like "I'm going to sue you" will get you absolutely no where.

If you really, really want your work removed after you have posted it in the Battlegrounds, there is a distinct possibility that you may get your wish. On the other hand, there is the possibility that you may never be allowed to post on TRF again (banned).

I've published a story I posted on TRF! The publisher wants the copy on TRF removed, can you take it down?
First of all, congratulations on being published. This is a big moment for any author. Second, contact a member of the Staff, and something will be worked out. We'll probably remove it, and insert a reference referring interested parties to where they may purchase or read your work.

Who owns what copyrights for TRF?
The TRF Rules, version 1.0 are © by Gash Jiren. The TRF Rules, version 2.0 are © Gash Jiren, Deamon Hyfe and Ceros Sin Kii. The TRF Rules, version 3.0 are © Gash Jiren, Deamon Hyfe, Ceros Sin Kii, Kas, Omnae, Lupercus Darksword, Sith Ahnk, et all.

The forum style 'Bold Orange' and 'Bold Blue' are © by Kas. The forum style 'Duel' is © by Gash Jiren. The forum style 'vB Blue' is © by Jellsoft.

vBulletin is © by Jellsoft.

The text content of TRF is © by their respective owners. The text as a whole is © by the Rebel Faction, and is a collective work.

No part of this forum may be copied without the permission of its respective owner.

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Thanks a lot!

The second biggest problem you would have is the apparently international nature of the website. Copyright law, while the same throughout the U.S., is NOT the same in different countries, not even close in some cases. And it is completely possible to be sued (and lose) in another country based on something that is LEGAL in the U.S.

For example, in your "Who Owns The Copyright," under U.S. law, the collective work as a whole would almost certainly have a copyright separate from the individual copyrights as a "compilation" or "collaborative work." While the individual authors would still retain a copyright in their own work, they would have no rights to control anything to do with the compilation.

However, most of the rest of the world (but not the U.S.) recognizes the concept of "moral rights" of an author. Moral rights give the author the right to have some control over the use of his or her work, even after assigning his or her rights to another. The scope of these rights vary from country to country.

So, while your first FAQ entry is relatively on-point for a U.S. contributor, it would not be controlling if, say, an Australian contributor decided to haul your ass into an Australian court for NOT removing the material when he asked, in violation of his moral rights (which, as noted above, aren't even recognized in the U.S.).

And, just to make things more complicated, even if you somehow managed to convince the Australian court that it would be grossly unfair to have to fly "down under" to defend yourself, the enraged Aussie could come to the U.S. and file in U.S. Federal Court -- and you might STILL be subject to AUSSIE copyright law, since the infringement arose under Aussie law and there is no corresponding U.S. law.

This is just one example of trying to develop a one-size-fits-all copyright scheme. If you were to limit the users to U.S. contributors it would be easier. With foreign contributors involved, well, good luck. I'm not trying to scare you or anything -- in reality, it's just as expensive for the plaintiff to mount an international copyright infringement suit as it is for a defendant to fight it -- but I think it is worthwhile to point out the enormous complexities in trying to figure out copyrights in a world with no international copyright laws!

BTW, I noted above that the copyright stuff was your second biggest problem. I think your first biggest problem is going to be Trademark infringement -- do you have permission from the Star Wars trademark holders to run a fansite? The trademark owners may very well allow authors to use the trademarks in their own works, I don't know -- but if they don't, and you don't have permission (in ALL of the countries from where you have contributions), then I would worry about the trademark issue before wasting my time worrying about copyrights...

BTW, I noted above that the copyright stuff was your second biggest problem. I think your first biggest problem is going to be Trademark infringement -- do you have permission from the Star Wars trademark holders to run a fansite? The trademark owners may very well allow authors to use the trademarks in their own works, I don't know -- but if they don't, and you don't have permission (in ALL of the countries from where you have contributions), then I would worry about the trademark issue before wasting my time worrying about copyrights...

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Lucasarts is pretty good about people writing fanfiction and RPG's. They have published numerous RPG books, and other guides; our board is basically an on-line implementation of these off-line works. There are also quite a few other boards that are a great deal larger than us, and they've been around for quite a long time.

Though, if Lucasarts got a bug down their pants and hit on us, we would basically fold up and shut down. :-/ Collage students don't have deep pockets for lawsuits.

I would guess that they wouldn't do anything; they have significant amounts of money invested in hopeless nerds like us. Heh.

This is just one example of trying to develop a one-size-fits-all copyright scheme.

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Would it be possible to write up a TOU/End User Agreement that basically said "By posting on this message board you agree that all your writing becomes part of a group compilation, and may not be removed from this message board without express permission from the board Staff..." etc?

Also, given that the website is hosted in the US, would that have any bearing?

Thanks a lot!

Would it be possible to write up a TOU/End User Agreement that basically said "By posting on this message board you agree that all your writing becomes part of a group compilation, and may not be removed from this message board without express permission from the board Staff..." etc?

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You could, and it would likely hold some weight in an American court -- but as I noted previously, it might not hold up if foreign law were to be applied. It might be better to have a "choice of law" clause that specifies that any disputes concerning the site and its contents will be decided using U.S. law -- that might help clarify the issue for the courts.

Of course, then the problem becomes whether foreign CONTRACT law would allow such a clause to be binding...

Also, given that the website is hosted in the US, would that have any bearing?

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It's certainly MORE likely that if someone wanted to sue you for some reason, they would have to do it in America. But is isn't necessarily the case.

As previously noted, from a practical standpoint, the chances of you being dragged into an international copyright suit are pretty slim, since the plaintiff would likely have to shell out a big chunk of change up front to get a lawyer even interested. You simply can't produce a one-size-fits-all contract or disclaimers; companies that do business with foreign countries hire lawyers to put together contract and intellectual property clauses for each individual country they deal with. That's probably not practical for you.

So, to summarize -- unless you can afford to hire a lawyer to draft contracts binding in each country, your best bet is to concentrate on the U.S. law (since it is far more likely, although still unlikely, that you would be dragged into court in the U.S.) and just make decisions on a case-by-case basis if an issue involving a foreign writer comes up.

Thanks a lot for the reply. I guess the only comment I have is that I find it very odd that I can't put up a bit of text in the user agreement (which they have to read and agree to before joining) that says 'you agree that we may use any text you post in any way we see fit' and have it be considered a legally binding document. I guess I don't see how any country can say that what someone agrees to do over the Internet suddenly wouldn't apply once they get ants down their pants. :-/


Ok, one more question then. I was discussing this problem with a friend over dinner last night, and she mentioned that perhaps our website should consider ourselves a publishing medium. I didn't know what she was talking about, so she went on to say that we should just call ourselves a non-profit publishing house, and reserve the rights any normal publisher would have over text.

So I guess by putting your work on our site it would be considered as if someone had submitted an article to a publisher, and the work was accepted. So while the author can do whatever they want with the work afterwards, we would be considered the first publisher, and have first rights to the work.


Would that be feasible, or would we have to become incorporated/organized, etc (The Rebel Faction Group, heh heh, sounds pretty snazzy..) in order to do that? I really don't want to go through all that trouble if so, it would be easier to write up a bunch of mumbo-jumbo and bluff everyone into thinking it was legal.

I guess the only comment I have is that I find it very odd that I can't put up a bit of text in the user agreement (which they have to read and agree to before joining) that says 'you agree that we may use any text you post in any way we see fit' and have it be considered a legally binding document. I guess I don't see how any country can say that what someone agrees to do over the Internet suddenly wouldn't apply once they get ants down their pants. :-/

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It's not even a sure thing in the U.S., much less in another country. For example, how do YOU, as the website owner, KNOW that the person "agreeing" to your user agreement is even the author of the work? Is it fair to hold the author to an agreement he didn't "sign?" Another example -- as I noted earlier, most countries acknowledge the "moral rights" of an author, and those countries generally do not allow ANY waiver of those rights -- so, even if they agree to it, the agreement may be "void" as being against public policy. And so on.

When you start talking about stuff in an international context, it gets crazy in a hurry. But, like I said, you can weight the risks versus the rewards, and make an educated decision as to how you want to handle things.

I didn't know what she was talking about, so she went on to say that we should just call ourselves a non-profit publishing house, and reserve the rights any normal publisher would have over text.

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This doesn't make any sense to me either. Two things:

1. Publishers don't have any special rights or place in society -- what they do generally have are very good contracts that have been drawn up and fine-tuned by lawyers and the legal system, so that they are prteey strong. Perhaps you could search around the net to find a publishing contract that you could use as a template for your own user agreements, or perhpas it would be worthwhile to spend a couple of hundred bucks to have a lawyer who is familiar with working with publishing contracts simply draw one up for you.

2. Non-profit organizations have to file all sorts of paperwork with the local, state and federal government, etc. Probably not worth pursuing, but if you do, you'll definitely need a lawyer to help you do it right.

it would be easier to write up a bunch of mumbo-jumbo and bluff everyone into thinking it was legal.

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Overall, probably your best bet -- just so long as you know that if the day comes that a REAL lawyer comes after you, make sure you talk to a real lawyer yourself!

It's not even a sure thing in the U.S., much less in another country. For example, how do YOU, as the website owner, KNOW that the person "agreeing" to your user agreement is even the author of the work? Is it fair to hold the author to an agreement he didn't "sign?"

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You're right; it would be pretty hard to know for sure. We do have a strong policy against stealing other authors work though, having had our work stolen before has reinforced the idea that plagiarism is a bad thing.

Overall, probably your best bet -- just so long as you know that if the day comes that a REAL lawyer comes after you, make sure you talk to a real lawyer yourself!

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Absolutely. Either that or simply cave in, heh. Thanks a lot for the help.