Old sheets of music and copyright

Hi,
I live in NJ and I would like to create a info CD-ROM and sell it on Ebay. I love classical music and I’d like to put together some material about famous authors such as Chopin, Mozart, etc. Writing about their biographical information won’t be a problem, but on the CD I have in mind I would like to include pdf files with their most famous works (the actual sheets of music). I found a website that distributes classical sheets of music for free (a public domain), but I am confused about copyright regulations. Here is what this website says”

“This site is completely legal! The editions of music presented on this site were published over 75 years ago, so their copyright has passed and they are in public domain. We can therefore copy them and distribute them freely. So, both the music and the original editions of the music presented here are in the public domain; however, please be aware that the computer file reproductions within this website are copyright 2000. Copies of them may be printed out for personal and performance use, but they may not be used for commercial purposes without our permission, nor may they be distributed without our permission.”

Do you think I could include these sheets of music on my CD without violating copyright regulations? What if I specifically state that all sheets of music are included as a bonus material? Would it be legal? What if I personalize those sheets of music (using a different text stile, etc.)? Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

Sincerely,

APL

pm2point5 said:

Hi,
I live in NJ and I would like to create a info CD-ROM and sell it on Ebay. I love classical music and I’d like to put together some material about famous authors such as Chopin, Mozart, etc. Writing about their biographical information won’t be a problem, but on the CD I have in mind I would like to include pdf files with their most famous works (the actual sheets of music). I found a website that distributes classical sheets of music for free (a public domain), but I am confused about copyright regulations. Here is what this website says”

“This site is completely legal! The editions of music presented on this site were published over 75 years ago, so their copyright has passed and they are in public domain. We can therefore copy them and distribute them freely. So, both the music and the original editions of the music presented here are in the public domain; however, please be aware that the computer file reproductions within this website are copyright 2000. Copies of them may be printed out for personal and performance use, but they may not be used for commercial purposes without our permission, nor may they be distributed without our permission.”

Do you think I could include these sheets of music on my CD without violating copyright regulations? What if I specifically state that all sheets of music are included as a bonus material? Would it be legal? What if I personalize those sheets of music (using a different text stile, etc.)? Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

Sincerely,

APL

Click to expand...

The above disclaimer is quite clear. And by doing what you are suggesting you would be in violation of the copyright. Plain and simple.

Hi,
Thanks for your quick reply, I appreciate it. I just can't understand how somebody can copyright something that, at least in theory, should be free. I know, you are thinking "and I don't understand why you want to sell something that,at least in theory, should be free for everybody". The thing is that my information CD (and believe me, it is taking me a loooot of time to put together all the material I need) would look much better if I included actual sheets of music (SOM). What if I include those SOM as a bonus material and I reference the website I downloaded those SOM from? Thanks again!

APL

The sheet music is not copyrighted. HOWEVER, the website and it's contents and the presentation are. No matter what you do with the materials you download, anything you download from the website is an infringement.

What if you find out where the original materials are and ask for copies? now wouldn't that solve your problem? And before you ask, check your local library.

Hi,
Thanks again for your suggestions, I appreciate it! (you really are as fast as a winter breeze in your reply) Now, I don't want to seem too insistent, but how is anybody going to find out where I downloaded those SOM, which are in a pdf file and don't contain any sort of reference to their original source? (it is just plain music, and now that you made think about it seems like they were scanned from a library book). Thanks again!

APL

If you come to one of my five websites I know not only your I.P. address, but also what system you are running, each and every service pack you've installed and in what general location you are physically, including your access point to the web.

Don't be fooled into thinking that the internet is anonymous.

Hi,
Thanks again, this conversation is really useful for me. Ok, I will ask you one more question and then I won't bother you anymore What if I print those sheets of music and then I re-scan them? That should work, right? By the way which type of website are you running? Again, thank for your time and suggestions.

APL

Quit trying to circumvent the law. The mere fact that you received them from a copyrighted site is in itself a violation, regardless of how you try to doctor them.

BelizeBreeze said:

Quit trying to circumvent the law. The mere fact that you received them from a copyrighted site is in itself a violation, regardless of how you try to doctor them.

Click to expand...

**A: may be the writer is Scam MD?

Hi,
Just to be clear, I am just trying to understand what I can and what I cannot do, that's all. The concept of copyright is really ambiguous, and the border between legal and illegal very thin. After all the website I am talking about allows you to download for free 2 sheets of music per day, but if you want the whole collection (hundreds of pdf files) you have to pay about $20 (still a reasonable price for so much material). Now, if they did it there should be a legal way to copyright and sell material that should be copyright-free for everybody. And again, what I am trying to put together and sell would be mostly original material. Peace!

APL

pm2point5 said:

Hi,
Just to be clear, I am just trying to understand what I can and what I cannot do, that's all. The concept of copyright is really ambiguous, and the border between legal and illegal very thin. After all the website I am talking about allows you to download for free 2 sheets of music per day, but if you want the whole collection (hundreds of pdf files) you have to pay about $20 (still a reasonable price for so much material). Now, if they did it there should be a legal way to copyright and sell material that should be copyright-free for everybody. And again, what I am trying to put together and sell would be mostly original material. Peace!

APL

Click to expand...

I believe that the origional written material doesn't hold a 75 year copyright anyway, it would hold a 150 year copyright from the time of death of the origional author. I read that somewhere a year or so ago, so how does the website now hold the copyright of the origionals??? Sounds fishy to me.
~Mary~

Hi,
Thanks for your reply. The sheets of music I am talking about were written by musicians that passed away more than 150 years ago (i.e. Chopin, Mozart, etc.). Thanks again for your interest!

APL

The latest stuff first:

I believe that the origional written material doesn't hold a 75 year copyright anyway, it would hold a 150 year copyright from the time of death of the origional author. I read that somewhere a year or so ago, so how does the website now hold the copyright of the origionals??? Sounds fishy to me.

Click to expand...

The current copyright term is 70 years from the death of the author, 95 years or 120 years for pseudonymous works or works for hire (from date of publication or date of creation, whichever gives the shorter term). Anything originally published before 1923 is in the public domain, period.

The website doesn't hold the copyright to the originals -- they hold a copyright to their particular presentation of the originals. Nothing fishy about it.

I just can't understand how somebody can copyright something that, at least in theory, should be free.

Click to expand...

You should have listened to Breezy. You cannot copyright works that are in the public domain; however, you can copyright presentations of the works.

For example, Romeo and Juliet is in the public domain -- I could go down to Barnes and Noble, pick up any old copy and buy it, bring it home, and get on my computer and start typing away, and then take my Word doc down to a publishing house and publish my own version of Romeo and Juliet and sell it. No problem at all. I have not violated anyone's copyright.

But if I took that copy that I purchased, made photocopies of it or PDF'd it, THEN tried to sell it, I would be violating the book publishers copyright -- not their copyright on the story, because they don't have one, but on the way they physically presented the story -- the cover, the font, the layout, all that.

So, the CONTENT isn't copyrighted -- it can't be, it's in the public domain -- but the FORMAT or PRESENTATION can be copyrighted.

I hope that clears things up for you.

So, in your specific case, the songs themselves are of course public domain. However, the formatting of the songs into PDF format is very likely "transformative" enough to create a copyright in the person that did the transforming. You could download the music from the site, or any other site, and use that information to create your OWN PDF (or other format) files, then that would be okay -- as long as you left out any "creative" formatting that the earlier people might have included.

What if I print those sheets of music and then I re-scan them? That should work, right?

Click to expand...

No. That is the same thing as scanning a book, or copying a CD. You are copying their creative work that is copyrighted along with the public domain material, and that is against the rules.

You can only use the CONTENT from the copyrighted works, not the PRESENTATION. Period.

he concept of copyright is really ambiguous, and the border between legal and illegal very thin.

Click to expand...

Well, hopefully now you see where that "thin border" really is now.

Well not really. Facsimiles of PD works are not protected in the U.S. "New edtions" are not either if no new authorship is added. Neither are fontfaces. (but the computer code can be) The Copyright Office has denied registration for some font code that was automatically generated. Ask the Copyright Office. They will tell you that substantial new authorship must be added to be a new work. They will not knowingly register such unoriginal "editions" and registration is required to sue. Hard work by itself is not protected. Nor is a simple change of media. It is any originality apparent in the new version that would be protected, not the act of, or work involved in copying/transcribing it. This is all covered in: Fishman - available at many libraries. Even actual photographs of PD artwork is likely not protected. See: Corel v Bridgeman

I am familiar with the website in question http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net The material in question are automated scan-to-pdf files of PD material. Applying the grounds in the above Fishman book and the Corel ruling, they are not covered under any new copyright. Of course the website code and possibly the compilation is. This is my own understanding and NOT LEGAL ADVICE.

Facsimiles of PD works are not protected in the U.S. "New edtions" are not either if no new authorship is added. Neither are fontfaces.

Click to expand...

Understood. However, my assumption was that this particular edition of Romeo and Juliet that I bought at Barnes and Noble might have a unique cover, perhaps flourishes aroung the pages, maybe those giant funky letters at the begining of a chapter -- all that creative stuff. While this is not "new authorship" it would certainly be "creative" enough to be copyrightable. The threshold for creativity is actually pretty low. See Alfred Bell v Catalda Fine Arts. A facsimile of such a work would be infringing.

Of course, if all they had was a typed manuscript, with no "creative" aspects or works of "new authorship," then of course a photocopy would be insufficiently transformative to give rise to a new copyrightable work.

Hard work by itself is not protected. Nor is a simple change of media.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Feist v. Rural Telephone, Lee v. A.R.T.

It is any originality apparent in the new version that would be protected, not the act of, or work involved in copying/transcribing it.

Click to expand...

I agree; see above.

The material in question are automated scan-to-pdf files of PD material.

Click to expand...

How do you know that? Unless these scans are directly from pre-1923 works, or from some other identifiable public domain source, they may NOT be public domain. Of course, the sheet music archive may be infringing as well. Or maybe nobody is infringing.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make still stands -- the presentation of a public domain work may very well be copyrighted or copyrightable. I was assuming that sheet music archive was presenting their works in a creative presentaion format that they developed -- in which case reuse of the works without authorization would be infringing. If they are actually merely making PDF's of public domain works, then they probably don't have a copyright they can enforce.