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Arrested for asking trolley cops for ID

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N

nuke-marine

Guest
What is the name of your state? California, San Diego

Heard about citizens having to produce ID to cops so I thought to turn the tables. Knowing that some people like to impersonate military and police, I decided to ask for ID before conforming to any demands of law enforcements. On the trolley, the trolley cops like everyone to pull out the passes ahead of time so they can stroll through looking for the one guy or gal without. I asked to see their ID first. As I had issue with the lady the previous week, she remembered me. She called for back up and they waited over 10 minutes and 5 stops before confronting me. The one trolley cop that showed ID had a one that expired in 1999 (November). As none wanted to show ID, I did not show my pass which I had. They handcuffed me, drug me off the trolley (I offered no help or hindrance) and charged me with 148 1a (interference with an officer).

Ok, no research yields any case or situation with non-conformity due to lack of police offering identification. Looking at the penalties (1000 dollars or a year in jail) I'm thinking of defense or the ACLU. Ask me, cops should have no problem offering identification upon request if immediate threat is not present. That one "cop" offered expired ID would send alarm bells off in any other situation. Course, I'm in the military which trains you to be scepticle of anything, even someone in uniform.

Advice, questions, concerns? For now, I'll show the pass then ask for ID. So far, the guy seems a little nervous that I took down his info.

Nuke
 


CdwJava

Senior Member
Were they in uniform? The Transit Authority officers in San Diego are in a clearly marked and distinctive uniform. They also have Code Enforcement officers (that issue citations) and security officers (that carry guns and make the detentions until the police show up). They also have uniformed and plain clothes San Diego cops that ride the trolleys for added protection ... I used to do the plain clothes gig.

If they were in uniform, they were certainly under no obligation to show you any ID while they were dealing with you. I can think of a dozen reasons why it is a bad idea for an officer of any stripe to allow the tables to be turned on them, or to allow themselves to be distracted. And since you recognized her from before, then you REALLY had no place to ask.

CA has no law requiring us to show our ID upon request. So that will give you no clear ground to stand upon.

Yes, you can get a lawyer to represent you for the PC 148 charge, but I doubt the ACLU will consider getting involved - it's too small potatoes, and there is no overriding "public concern" in this matter.

Unless the officer was in plain clothes, and failed to produce even a badge, you will lose this one.

When I was working the detail, I would have pointed to my badge at your request. Then, I would have politely asked for the ID again. If you failed to comply after two or three such requests, I would simply have had you cited for not having a pass on the trolley, and had you removed. I might have considered 148, but since you never would have shown me a pass, I would have simply assumed you were without one and had you removed from the trolley and cited.

- Carl
 
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stephenk

Senior Member
nuke-marine said:
What is the name of your state? California, San Diego

Heard about citizens having to produce ID to cops so I thought to turn the tables. Knowing that some people like to impersonate military and police, I decided to ask for ID before conforming to any demands of law enforcements. On the trolley, the trolley cops like everyone to pull out the passes ahead of time so they can stroll through looking for the one guy or gal without. I asked to see their ID first. As I had issue with the lady the previous week, she remembered me. She called for back up and they waited over 10 minutes and 5 stops before confronting me. The one trolley cop that showed ID had a one that expired in 1999 (November). As none wanted to show ID, I did not show my pass which I had. They handcuffed me, drug me off the trolley (I offered no help or hindrance) and charged me with 148 1a (interference with an officer).

Ok, no research yields any case or situation with non-conformity due to lack of police offering identification. Looking at the penalties (1000 dollars or a year in jail) I'm thinking of defense or the ACLU. Ask me, cops should have no problem offering identification upon request if immediate threat is not present. That one "cop" offered expired ID would send alarm bells off in any other situation. Course, I'm in the military which trains you to be scepticle of anything, even someone in uniform.

Advice, questions, concerns? For now, I'll show the pass then ask for ID. So far, the guy seems a little nervous that I took down his info.

Nuke

I can't wait to read your thesis on your failed social experiment on "turning the tables" on the cops. Semper fi!
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
HomeGuru said:
I can't believe an active service man would do something like that to get arrested.
My experience was that if someone in the USMC got popped and then convicted of PC 148, their career in the USMC was over. The Corps seems to take a dim view of their people defying the civil authorities and breaking the law.

I found that a call to a Marine's command could do more for justice than the courts could ever do. :D

But, if he's Navy ... well, who knows?

- Carl
 
S

SignorFrancesco

Guest
I'd love to say that Marines don't act like this, but unfortunately I spent enough time looking through their personnel records to know that's not true. No, his career wouldn't be over, but he'd most likely get nailed with a "Conduct Unbecoming" charge to begin with, and find himself dropping down to the last rank he held. That was extremely common to find.

Anyway, the expired ID is of no consequence. My entire department went without valid IDs for several months while we were waiting for a new Chief to be hired. I doubt seriously that any of those officers are shaking in their boots over the stand you took.

I could understand if you had been doing nothing to warrant arrest and some cop wanted to take you away in an unmarked vehicle, which caused you to question their identity, but this was nothing like that. A uniformed cop, I will guess they were in uniform, asked you for your trolley pass. That's not cause to be concerned. So what if the person is not a cop, is pretending to be one, and asks for your pass? They're an idiot, but you're in no danger. It's not worth the risk of getting tossed off the trolley, or arrested.

As Java pointed out, you had had dealings with the female officer, and apparently problems with her as well. You knew who she was, and that it was unlikely that she was impersonating an officer. You were being foolish and trying to make a ridiculous point. Especially being from the military you should behave better, and respond to commands better. I hope your commanding officer gets a hold of you and gives you a little one on one talk. Better yet, maybe the CO and your Sgt. I'm sure that would be an enlightening experience for you. Please, tell them you want to get the ACLU involved. I be you'll get an interesting response, heheh.

I'm not sure what happened between you and the female officer, to get you in this situation, but you need to calm down now. Even if she got in your face over nothing, and was a pain in the butt without needing to be. She's not the one facing a ticket, and nothing you can do or say now will matter much in getting her or any of the other officers in trouble, unless they brutalized you, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Go to court, if necessary, and explain to the judge why you were so upset. Tell them that you now understand that your actions were inappropriate and that you let your anger get the best of you, and that this won't happen again. Make sure to say that you're sorry. That, more than getting the ACLU involved, should take care of this. You'll have to deal with the consequences of your actions, but it shouldn't be too bad. Judges are gods in their courts, and if they truly believe you understand the error of your actions, they'll most likely cut you a break.
 
N

nuke-marine

Guest
CdwJava said:
If they were in uniform, they were certainly under no obligation to show you any ID while they were dealing with you. I can think of a dozen reasons why it is a bad idea for an officer of any stripe to allow the tables to be turned on them, or to allow themselves to be distracted. And since you recognized her from before, then you REALLY had no place to ask.
Yes they were in uniform. One was private security and the other two were code compliant. Plus, it's not exactly turning the tables. While I must produce ID during Terry stops and various times of conducting duty, I would only ask ID when a cop (or trolley workers in this case) interacted with me. Cops, by law, have to provide badge numbers, names and station.

CA has no law requiring us to show our ID upon request. So that will give you no clear ground to stand upon.
What surprised me is that no law either for or against a uniformed cop showing ID is on the books. If there was such a thing, I have little standing but none of the trio I interacted with stated such.

Yes, you can get a lawyer to represent you for the PC 148 charge, but I doubt the ACLU will consider getting involved - it's too small potatoes, and there is no overriding "public concern" in this matter.
Considering the 1000 dollar max fine (or year in jail which sounds extremely unlikely), it's worth my while to get a lawyer.

When I was working the detail, I would have pointed to my badge at your request. Then, I would have politely asked for the ID again. If you failed to comply after two or three such requests, I would simply have had you cited for not having a pass on the trolley, and had you removed. I might have considered 148, but since you never would have shown me a pass, I would have simply assumed you were without one and had you removed from the trolley and cited.

- Carl
They were thinking failure to comply but upped the ante. Just to make sure, a cop in uniform never has to produce ID? Someone in uniform shows up at your door, you take him at his appearance? I get that they're on their holy ground operating at the trolley. By the way, I did ask after filing the complaint with another trolley cop. He said they have a written policy that they do not have to show ID. Unfortunately it's private so he could not give any evidence of it.

May have to bite the bullet on this one. Still think there should not be an issue with showing ID.

Nuke
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
nuke-marine said:
Yes they were in uniform. One was private security and the other two were code compliant.
Usually it was two security and one code compliance when I was there ... but, I suppose it could be the other way around from time to time.


While I must produce ID during Terry stops and various times of conducting duty, I would only ask ID when a cop (or trolley workers in this case) interacted with me. Cops, by law, have to provide badge numbers, names and station.
First, they weren't cops - they are private security and public officers - not peace officers. Second, the information you mention is on their uniform or could be provided verbally. There IS NO requirement in CA for a peace officer - if they had been such - to produce acceptable (or any) form of identification.


What surprised me is that no law either for or against a uniformed cop showing ID is on the books. If there was such a thing, I have little standing but none of the trio I interacted with stated such.
There is no such law. And it's for obvious reasons ... we do not want to have our officers impeded while they fish for ID when they should be doing their jobs or protecting themselves. It won't happen.


Considering the 1000 dollar max fine (or year in jail which sounds extremely unlikely), it's worth my while to get a lawyer.
Go ahead. But the case won't be dropped for the ID issue. if it is dropped it will be because you make a big, "I'm sorry" to the court, or, plead to something less.


Just to make sure, a cop in uniform never has to produce ID? Someone in uniform shows up at your door, you take him at his appearance?
If three of them show up, it's a good bet they are who they say they are. However, in your case you also had a car load of witnesses. if they weren't security or code compliance, what did you think they were going to do? issue you a bogus ticket and ask for the bail right there?

If suspicious cops show up at your door, you can always call 9-1-1 and confirm them. Unless it is an urgent situation, much of the time the officers will shrug it off if you really want to do that. But if they are trying to serve a warrant or some other urgent thing, they ain't gonna wait.


I get that they're on their holy ground operating at the trolley.
Not "holy", just within their primary jurisdiction.


By the way, I did ask after filing the complaint with another trolley cop. He said they have a written policy that they do not have to show ID. Unfortunately it's private so he could not give any evidence of it.
As a public agency, their policies and procedures are not 'private'. However, it's irrelevant as the law does not require them to produce the ID.


May have to bite the bullet on this one. Still think there should not be an issue with showing ID.
Start a petition drive.

- Carl
 
N

nuke-marine

Guest
SignorFrancesco said:
I'd love to say that Marines don't act like this, but unfortunately I spent enough time looking through their personnel records to know that's not true. No, his career wouldn't be over, but he'd most likely get nailed with a "Conduct Unbecoming" charge to begin with, and find himself dropping down to the last rank he held. That was extremely common to find.
Conduct Unbecoming is only charged against officers. You may be thinking of Art. 134, but not likely although there is a paragraph in there for violating local laws. On the bright side, I'm on shore duty so can refuse NJP (which is stacked deck in legal terms of justice) for a Court Martial if it went that route. Sadly, it's one of those things that even if you win, you lose as you have to go to another command to leave the stigma. It won't be the situation in this case.

Anyway, the expired ID is of no consequence. My entire department went without valid IDs for several months while we were waiting for a new Chief to be hired. I doubt seriously that any of those officers are shaking in their boots over the stand you took.
So if he was in civilian clothing and offered a badge and an expired ID you'd have no problem submitting to his authority? Problem I see is that there were multiple types of ID's for the MTS employees and subcontractors. Slightly off topic, but I had issues with contractors trying to get through the gates of base with paperwork and non-picture ID's. Uniforms are all well and good, but an ID under scrutiny holds maximum weight in my opinion (and of others).

I could understand if you had been doing nothing to warrant arrest and some cop wanted to take you away in an unmarked vehicle, which caused you to question their identity, but this was nothing like that. A uniformed cop, I will guess they were in uniform, asked you for your trolley pass. That's not cause to be concerned. So what if the person is not a cop, is pretending to be one, and asks for your pass? They're an idiot, but you're in no danger. It's not worth the risk of getting tossed off the trolley, or arrested.
Again, as they were uniformed on the trolley, I may have to take a fall on this one. Only saving grace may be that they messed up on their proceedures (minor stuff) so the head shed might just want to drop it altogether. Me, I've informed my chain of command who seem deeply unconcerned. I'll look into getting a lawyer to get it completely dropped.

[/QUOTE]Especially being from the military you should behave better, and respond to commands better. I hope your commanding officer gets a hold of you and gives you a little one on one talk. Better yet, maybe the CO and your Sgt. I'm sure that would be an enlightening experience for you. Please, tell them you want to get the ACLU involved. I be you'll get an interesting response, heheh.
Sorry buddy, been doing this military thing for 10 years. I doubt your prediction would hold.

Nuke
 
S

SignorFrancesco

Guest
Well, you asked for advice, which even free comes at the price of the givers opinion, and you got what you asked for.

My feeling here is that you've learned nothing. I was unaware that the Corps got rid of the Conduct Unbecoming a Marine, not Conduct Unbecoming an Officer, which is another charge altogether.

The one thing that will most likely come out of all this is that, because you've learned nothing from this experience, you will insert yourself into a similar situation again and will be dealing with actual peace officers next time, who won't be patient with the flippant attitude.

And to answer your question, again, if a peace officer shows up for no reason, and the circumstances seem at all odd, no I most definitely would not cater to their requests and would ask for a supervisor to respond. If three cops show up at your door for nothing, and want entry into your house, call the cops immediately. If they're not cops, and you ask for ID, you'll most likely be a crime scene when the real cops get there. Bad guys are even less patient with people who have bad attitudes. On the other hand, if I was speeding, driving wrecklessly, causing a disturbance in public, or having a problem at my home, then I wouldn't be surprised when the cops rolled up and wanted to infringe on my personal space. If there's an urgent or emergency situation, I'm going to get taken to the ground and cuffed for not complying with commands and demanding ID.

Wish this had been a learning experience for you, but I seriously doubt it has. The Corps just isn't what it used to be I guess. Discipline, honor, respect, and ethics used to mean something to a Marine. Most anyway. . .
 
N

nuke-marine

Guest
My feeling here is that you've learned nothing. I was unaware that the Corps got rid of the Conduct Unbecoming a Marine, not Conduct Unbecoming an Officer, which is another charge altogether.
There was never anything to get rid of. There is no such charge as Conduct Unbecoming a Marine (or Sailor or Soldier). That was just crap the DI told you to scare you. That they call Art. 134 the catch all does not make it so (it has definate paragraphs of acts that apply). Now at NJP they can call it such and it will apply as it's non-judicial, but no charges like that (I saw one called "Art. 134 Failure to Shave) exist in the MCM (manual for courts martial). That's the catch-22 with NJP, if your not-guilty it doesn't matter as it can't be appealed except on two issues (that you didn't do it is irrelevant). Military Justice for you.

Think of it like that urban legend that if you ask an under cover cop if he's cop he has to tell you. Obviously it's not entrapment if he says no. He is not encouraging you to do anything you weren't planning on doing. On the same token, if a cop asks to look through your trunk and you comply it's fair game. However, if the cop tells you to open the trunk so he can look through it its illegal search and seisure.

For the trolley, in reality none of them "ordered" me to do anything. It was always "Can you" and "Will you" and "Do you". Once they gave orders I fully complied. I didn't run, I answered their questions. However, if they wanted undemanded compliance there had to be a trade-off. The lady got angry and lost her cool. In that, she saw the situation differently.

This wasn't me at a crime scene with cops trying to control matters. This was trolley cops who want life easier.

Wish this had been a learning experience for you, but I seriously doubt it has. The Corps just isn't what it used to be I guess. Discipline, honor, respect, and ethics used to mean something to a Marine. Most anyway. . .
Well, 9/11 changed all that. Or does that not apply in this case like in most others? I just like to be a civil annoyance at times. I'm that guy that does know the rules and has no problem with demanding those in charge of law enforcement follow the rules also. I'll drop a line to say how it comes out.

Thanks for your advice though. It did tell me I was in the wrong (especially the cops need to show ID). To be fair, the FBI Agents and Federal Officer I talked to said they have no problem showing ID on request (request as in no imminent danger present). Most likely that's a personal issue with them and not in relation to Federal law.

Nuke
 
S

SignorFrancesco

Guest
Out of all the things the DI did to scare me, telling me about being charged with Conduct Unbecoming was not one of them, LOL! When I was in the Corps, they still were a bit more "hands on" than they are now. You're not the only one who spent a significant amount of time in the military, and you're not the only one who knows a thing or two about the Corps.

Your statement about civil disobedience is exactly what I'm talking about as far as problems to look for in the future. I'd have no problem giving you ID if it were necessary and there was time, but that doesn't seem like the type of situation you like.

I don't know if you ever heard of the case where that guy took the lady's poodle and threw it into the freeway traffic, but he was one of those guys that believed he knew his rights and the law better than anyone else. He was a pain in the backside any time we had to deal with him when he was arrested. I'd be rich if I could charge a fee for every time I've run into someone who thought he knew the law and wanted to get into the face of some officer over it. Those guys get into fights and arguments in public, get arrested, and then are a constant pain while in custody.

Nuff said.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
nuke-marine said:
For the trolley, in reality none of them "ordered" me to do anything. It was always "Can you" and "Will you" and "Do you". Once they gave orders I fully complied. I didn't run, I answered their questions.
Well ... apparently you decided NOT to comply by showing them the pass, didn't you? So you did not fully comply.


However, if they wanted undemanded compliance there had to be a trade-off.
Legally? No. There did not have to be.


This wasn't me at a crime scene with cops trying to control matters. This was trolley cops who want life easier.
Yeah, trying to do their job while someone decided it was his place to conduct a social experiment.


I just like to be a civil annoyance at times.
Why? You have a great desire to buck the system or end up in jail? Or are you just so incredibly bored that these little things give you your jollies?


I'm that guy that does know the rules and has no problem with demanding those in charge of law enforcement follow the rules also. I'll drop a line to say how it comes out.
Apparently you did not know the rules here. You failed to follow the rules ... they did what they lawfully are permitted to. Had they shown you any ID it was entirely gratis on their part as they were under no legal obligation to do so.


To be fair, the FBI Agents and Federal Officer I talked to said they have no problem showing ID on request (request as in no imminent danger present). Most likely that's a personal issue with them and not in relation to Federal law.
That could be. And under most circumstances, I would be happy to do the same ... though making a good-looking though fake ID is a heck of a lot easier than getting the badge.

If asked, I usually show my ID. But, I wouldn't be doing that at a traffic stop or while I am confronting someone on the street. Nope. Not at all. Maybe after they were patted down and seated on the curb or handcuffed I might consider fishing it out, but not while I'm standing nose to nose with someone.

And typically those federal officers are dealing with different circumstances than your average cop ... or, in the case of your trolley officers, public officers.

- Carl
 

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