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Ex's Mother - court

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C

cr1973

Guest
WISCONSIN

To make a complex story simple, my ex's mother wants to take my ex to court for visitation. My ex and I have 50-50 placement. Question is:

Am I in any way involved with this court case or it's associated costs? Or is it my ex only vs her mom? I assume it will be my ex only because any visitation will be taken from my ex's time, not mine, correct?
 


BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
Simply put, yes, you are involved because as the parent you can file an answer in opposition with all court costs and fees taxed to the plaintiff.

Read Troxel and then tell your ex that you will join in any motion to deny visitation (if he is of like mind) OR will oppose on your own.

Granny has NO rights except what you and the ex wish to grant her.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Unfortunately Belize, you are not entirely correct when it comes to Wisconsin.
The only case law that has come out of Wisconsin since Troxel, reaffirmed the constitutionality of its gpv statutes and merely instructed judges to give presumptive weight to a fit parent's decision regarding gpv, and then went on to state the the judge should still make a "best's interest" determination with that in mind.

Therefore, its by no means a guaranteed "winner" for the parents.

Also, to the OP: Don't be 100% certain that (if the grandmother wins) a judge won't give her time that comes from both the father and you. I have seen it happen. You need to be prepared to argue against the judge doing that. You need to argue that you must share your parenting time with your extended family, and that it would be unjust for any of your time to be taken for the paternal extended family.

You will be a party to the proceedings. It is imperative that you be a fully active party to protect your rights. If you both are united in your opposition to court ordered gpv, your chances of winning are much stronger.
 

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
Therefore, its by no means a guaranteed "winner" for the parents.
And, of course, you can point to the place in my post where I said the above?

The ex is not allowing visitation. Hence, the court action. The mother does not want visitation. Now, since the PARENTS do not want the visitation a judge has no standing to intervene.

Let's see granny spend all of her money to find that out.
 

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
and by the way, try doing a bit deeper research:

"By limiting the risk and establishing factors, including standing, each of the Wisconsin provisions is more narrow than the Washington statute. Whether the Wisconsin statutes are, in fact, narrow enough to pass constitutional muster is something only time - and future litigation - will tell."
High Court Invalidates Grandparents' Rights Law," Wisconsin Opinions, June 21, 2000.

Now read the following, not as a grandparent, but as a disinterested party, and let's see if you hit on the salient points.

Section 767.245 of the Wisconsin Statutes allows third-party visitation in divorce and paternity cases. There are really two separate statutes here, enacted at different times (1975 for sub (1), 1995 for sub (3)), but combined in the same statutory section in the family code.

Sub. (1) of the statute applies to third parties seeking visitation when parents are going through a divorce, legal separation, annulment, or independent custody action. In Van Cleve v. Hemminger,10 the requirement was added that there must be an underlying family court action pending when an action under this statute is initiated. In Van Cleve, a far-seeing trial and appellate court questioned whether the Legislature could enact a law that allowed interference in an intact family by third parties. The court answered "no" and, except for statutory changes enacted later in the case of deceased parents and a Wisconsin Supreme Court case11 creating standing for de facto parents with no place else to go, the ruling has stood.

Under sub. (1), standing is limited to a grandparent, great grandparent, stepparent or a person who has maintained a relationship similar to a parent-child relationship with the child. The "or" is important, as it appears that any of the three described relatives may petition, but that anyone else who petitions under this statute must show that she or he had maintained a relationship similar to a parent?child relationship. Thus, de facto parent status need not be shown unless the petitioner fails to meet the relationship test.

Under sub. (1), once the petitioner has cleared the standing hurdle, the standard for imposing court-ordered visitation on an unwilling, but otherwise competent parent, is simple best interest. This is the standard that the U.S. Supreme Court in Troxel held violated a fit parent's fundamental right to direct his or her child's upbringing. Unless the Legislature changes the statute, the Wisconsin appellate courts eventually will be confronted with a well-pled challenge to this law. At that point, the court can 1) ignore Troxel and invite an appeal, 2) give the statute a saving construction by defining best interest in such a way that it includes a strong presumption in favor of parental decision making, or 3) hold that the statute is simply unconstitutional and toss the issue back to the Legislature.

Sub. (3) governs grandparent petitions in paternity cases. The standing requirements, intended to reverse specific court cases, allow a petition by any grandparent so long as the parents have not married each other and the child has not been adopted. In the case of a paternal grandparent, paternity must have been established, either separately or in the visitation action itself. The statute also requires that the grandparent has maintained or attempted to maintain "a relationship" with the child, but has been prevented from doing so by the legal custodian. There is no requirement that the grandparent show that she or he has acted as a de facto parent.

As to the standard, it is something more than best interest. There is a requirement that the court find that "the grandparent is not likely to act in a manner that is contrary to decisions that are made by a parent who has legal custody of the child and that are related to the child's physical, emotional, educational, or spiritual welfare."12

This standard, combined with the limited standing - grandparents only - probably will allow the statute to survive constitutional challenge, even though there is no explicit presumption in favor of deferring to the parent's wishes regarding the placement itself.

Section 767.245 also contains a recently enacted prohibition against allowing placement to a grandparent who has killed one of the parents, absent the meeting of a very high burden. That prohibition also should survive judicial scrutiny,13 because the burden is on the grandparent to prove by clear and convincing evidence that the visitation is in the child's best interests.
 

stealth2

Under the Radar Member
BelizeBreeze said:
Simply put, yes, you are involved because as the parent you can file an answer in opposition with all court costs and fees taxed to the plaintiff.
Just to clarify - this does NOT mean that grandma will be responsible for YOUR legal fees (as in your attorney's fees). A judge might grant them to you, but I wouldn't count on it.
 

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
O.K. let's see if you can finally get it.

From your case:

"The paternal grandmother in this case is seeking to maintain visitation rights with Roger D.H., a minor whose mother opposes the visitation. "

In this case, there was a pre-existing visitation 'stipulation' to the custody order of which the paternal grandmother AND the mother agreed to extend visitation to the Paternal Grandmother.

And, additionally, you seem to think that this case grants grandparents certain rights but it does not.

"Because we conclude that the circuit court applied an erroneous legal standard, we reverse and remand for further proceedings. On remand, the circuit court should reconsider the grandmother’s request for visitation under WIS. STAT. § 767.245(3), giving presumptive weight to the mother’s decision regarding non-parental visitation. "

The ONLY decision in this case was to remand the case back to the circuit court for redetermination based on the above. The grandparent in this case has no more rights than before.

Therefore, in my reading of this case, it is not relevant to the issue at hand but only a procedural decision with instructions to the lower courts. Nothing in this decision affects my answer.
 
C

cr1973

Guest
Actually...

Actually, my ex IS allowing her mom visitation , she just will not allow over nights at the grandmother's house. The grandmother, who is in her early 50's, lives a good 60 minutes from my ex, yet expects my ex to drive to her place for visitation.
 

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
cr1973 said:
Actually, my ex IS allowing her mom visitation , she just will not allow over nights at the grandmother's house. The grandmother, who is in her early 50's, lives a good 60 minutes from my ex, yet expects my ex to drive to her place for visitation.
And that changes nothing unless granny has a court order for visitation. Simply because one parent 'allows' visitation does not vest legal rights to such in the grandmother. If your ex doesn't want overnights then you need to join her in any action.
 
C

cr1973

Guest
Ok sorry to be fuzzy, let me clear things up:
The MATERNAL grandmother and the mother are not on best terms, hence the mother does not want the MATERNAL grandma to have overnights, but will allow the maternal grandmother to visit our daughter at the mother's house.
 

snostar

Senior Member
cr1973 said:
Ok sorry to be fuzzy, let me clear things up:
The MATERNAL grandmother and the mother are not on best terms, hence the mother does not want the MATERNAL grandma to have overnights, but will allow the maternal grandmother to visit our daughter at the mother's house.
This does not change the answer.
 
C

cr1973

Guest
Darn. guess I will be dragged into THEIR mess. thanks for the info.
 

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