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Life support question....

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A

AeroAngel

Guest
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Illinois

Hi all....I was wondering if somebody could help me. My father in law has been in the hospital, icu, on a ventilator this past week. He has severe emphysema. The doctors are going to attempt to take him off the ventilator in the next few days and see if he can breath on his own. 2 out of my husband's 4 sisters do not want them to put the ventilator back in if he can't breath without it. Is this legal to let him just slip away like that ? Seems awfully cruel to leave him gasping for air, as he is fully conscious, communicating and has no living will.

Thanks so much for any help you can offer!
 


cbg

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
This is not my area of expertise and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that if he is fully conscious, communicating, and competent, then it is HIS decision to make and not that of his daughters.

Ellencee?
 
A

AeroAngel

Guest
.

ok, thanks for your help, cbg. It seems to me, from a malpractice stand point, a physician wouldn't let this happen ....

Thanks again!
 
T

tigger22472

Senior Member
cbg said:
This is not my area of expertise and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that if he is fully conscious, communicating, and competent, then it is HIS decision to make and not that of his daughters.

Ellencee?
Click to expand...

I too believe you are right. If they can prove that he's competent he's to make the decision. However, it is legal to not put the vent.back on. My SIL and BIL did that for their child. They had to sign papers about it however.
 
A

AeroAngel

Guest
tigger22472 said:
I too believe you are right. If they can prove that he's competent he's to make the decision. However, it is legal to not put the vent.back on. My SIL and BIL did that for their child. They had to sign papers about it however.
Click to expand...
Hmmmmm....even if the patient is conscious they don't have to put the tube back in? Yikes....seems awfully cruel to let somebody struggle for oxygen while conscious...I was hoping it would be illegal for the physician not to intervene in that case.
Ok, thanks so much for your help, Tiger!
 
S

Shay-Pari'e

Senior Member
I'm not quite sure Tigger is understanding this. There is a difference between making a decision for a child.

Your father is conscience and aticulating. This is his decision, and it is against the law for them not to vent him again if need be. Your father needs to get a living will done, because until then, it is the doctors duty to sustain his life.
 
A

AeroAngel

Guest
--PARIDISE-- said:
I'm not quite sure Tigger is understanding this. There is a difference between making a decision for a child.

Your father is conscience and aticulating. This is his decision, and it is against the law for them not to vent him again if need be. Your father needs to get a living will done, because until then, it is the doctors duty to sustain his life.
Click to expand...
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you, Paridise!!! That is EXACTLY what I thought, and the answer I was looking for! :)

Thanks again, Paridise, you have been a GREAT help and comfort to me! :)
 
E

ellencee

Senior Member
The physicians are attempting to wean the patient from the ventilator; if it doesn't work this time, the patient will go back on the ventilator.

No one has to prove the patient is competent in order to abide by his wishes; at this stage, I don't think the physicians have to abide by anyone's wishes as it is part of the initial process of placing him on the ventilator to bring him through this current episode. The patient already gave his permission for this treatment regimen.

The parents who declined further ventilation for their child did not present the same legal/ethical situation as the alert, oriented, adult patient whose children are split 50:50 on whether or not he lives or dies.

If the OP's father-in-law can not be weaned from the ventilator,which may take several attempts, and if he remains conscious and alert,etc. then he will begin longterm ventilator management (think Christopher Reeves).

Healthcare proxy or Durable Power of Attorney can not force a physician to let a fully alert, conscious patient suffocate because of failed attempts to wean the patient from a ventilator.

EC
 
T

tigger22472

Senior Member
--PARIDISE-- said:
I'm not quite sure Tigger is understanding this. There is a difference between making a decision for a child.

Your father is conscience and aticulating. This is his decision, and it is against the law for them not to vent him again if need be. Your father needs to get a living will done, because until then, it is the doctors duty to sustain his life.
Click to expand...

I did understand. The poster asked if it was illegal NOT to put the vent back in. It's not illegal not to was my point. If the poster's FIL said HE didn't want it back in then it's not illegal... Whomever has the right, be it the patient, the POA, the parent, whatever has the right to make the choice on wether to put the vent back on.

As was said if the poster's FIL is competent and able to make decisions HE will have the right to decide, however, if he wasn't and a POA had been established the POA would be able to make that decision.
 
S

Shay-Pari'e

Senior Member
tigger22472 said:
I did understand. The poster asked if it was illegal NOT to put the vent back in. It's not illegal not to was my point. If the poster's FIL said HE didn't want it back in then it's not illegal... Whomever has the right, be it the patient, the POA, the parent, whatever has the right to make the choice on wether to put the vent back on.

As was said if the poster's FIL is competent and able to make decisions HE will have the right to decide, however, if he wasn't and a POA had been established the POA would be able to make that decision.
Click to expand...
Tigger, I am not bantering with you at the expense of the poster. Ellencee, CBG and I concure. He is conscience, and he is communicating. There was no room for "What If's".
 
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E

ellencee

Senior Member
tigger
At this point, even if the patient wanted the ventilator d/c'd, I think it would take a court order. The patient has already been placed on the ventilator and the time to refuse has already passed. It would take a significant deterioration in the patient's condition for removal of the ventilator, like something close to brain death where only the ventilator was keeping him alive.
EC
 
T

tigger22472

Senior Member
AeroAngel said:
Is this legal to let him just slip away like that ?
Click to expand...

THIS was the question that I answered.

I concurred that if the FIL is of mental compacity that he would make the decision.
 
B

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
The AMA Board of Medical Ethics will not allow the decision to be made by anyone but the patient and the doctor as long as the patient is conscience and alert.

Also, if there is dissention within the immediate family without a current Power of Attorney or living will, the patient will have a guardian appointed by the courts.

In this case, even if the patient were not conscience and/or alert, because of the dissention between blood relatives, the attending physician will NOT remove the ventillator without a legal determination.
 
A

AeroAngel

Guest
ellencee said:
The physicians are attempting to wean the patient from the ventilator; if it doesn't work this time, the patient will go back on the ventilator.

No one has to prove the patient is competent in order to abide by his wishes; at this stage, I don't think the physicians have to abide by anyone's wishes as it is part of the initial process of placing him on the ventilator to bring him through this current episode. The patient already gave his permission for this treatment regimen.

The parents who declined further ventilation for their child did not present the same legal/ethical situation as the alert, oriented, adult patient whose children are split 50:50 on whether or not he lives or dies.

If the OP's father-in-law can not be weaned from the ventilator,which may take several attempts, and if he remains conscious and alert,etc. then he will begin longterm ventilator management (think Christopher Reeves).

Healthcare proxy or Durable Power of Attorney can not force a physician to let a fully alert, conscious patient suffocate because of failed attempts to wean the patient from a ventilator.

EC
Click to expand...
AHHHHHHHHH...ok, thanks SO MUCH ellencee! You have also been a GREAT GREAT help!
And a big thanks to BelizeBreeze also!

Thanks again, ALL! :)
 
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