Earnings, SGA, Trial Work Period?

What is the name of your state? NV

First off, if y'all don't want to read a long story, the upshot is that i'm on Social Security Disability and i want to go to work without losing my benefits. So if you know who i might go to for straight answers to a rather complicated situation, then you can stop reading here and just tell me where to go. Heh. I'm willing to pay a lawyer, but i can't find one. Seems all the Social Security specialists want to do is get people who are applying for benefits, so they can get a percentage of back payments. Someone told me to call "Legal Aid" but i don't know who that is, there's nothing of the sort in the phone book.

Now if you do want to hear a story, and you think you might have a vague answer or two, it follows here...

I've been receiving disability benefits for approximately five years. Last year, i started my own business, and i informed my local Social Security office. They told me that by going to work, i was beginning a "trial work period" which lasts for nine months, after which i'm considered to not be disabled anymore and benefits cease.

I worked for about six months, i think. The majority of my work was under contract to a service company, in other words they would arrange the service, i would go do it, and then the company would reimburse me for expenses and pay me a commission. Unfortunately although i'm great at my job, i'm terrible with numbers. So every month i sent the local SS office a Quickbooks printout of what i thought my net profit was for the month, and called that income. I don't think it ever amounted to more than $800 or so, and as time went on it got less and less, as the service company wasn't really doing it's job finding me work.

Anyway somewhere, maybe four or five months, i became sick again and i stopped sending in my monthly income reports, and eventually i was hospitalized and i lost my contract.

All of ^that was really a question; the question being did i permanently use up six months or so of my trial work period? Because i'm now told there's a thing called "substantial gainful activity" and it's defined as around $800/mo for 2004. As i said, i rarely, if ever, netted that sort of income.

Now, i feel a bit better and i want to get back out in the world and start contributing again. But i want to keep my benefits for the time being because i can't work too hard, i'll just get sick again. I need to ease myself into it, and i think that in itself will help me get healthier, as long as i don't push it until i'm healthy enough to push it.

So. I'm a beneficiary of a trust fund which my Grandmother left when she died. What i'm proposing to the trustees is that they buy me a business and refrain from making disbursements, thus paying for the business. I intend to leave the business in the trust's name until it's paid for and/or i'm healthy enough to cut loose. This way, i can make my income whatever i want it to be, i mean the trust can just pay me whatever i need and the remainder can go back into the business.

See, i know someone who worked while on Disability, and what she did was make sure she never got paid more than what she was allowed to earn, which i'm guessing is Substantial Gainful Activity, which is around $800/mo. But when i looked up SGA on the Social Security site, it looked a lot more complicated than that.

Any insights?

The immediate and urgent problem is that at this time, my Social Security benefits don't come near to meeting my obligations and necessities. For instance, my medication alone is $300/mo. I don't have that, so it's been going on the credit cards. Then by the time i get my trust disbursements, the money is already gone. It's nice, that i do have the trust to pay the credit cards, but it doesn't help me go forward. I really need to go back to work, i worked all my life, and not working is as bad for my condition as working too much.

Thanks for listening,
JB

OK, gathered some stuff from other postings but i'm still not sure...

What i gather is, that Substantial Gainful Activity consists of more than $810/mo., AND/OR 20+ hours/week of work or work related activities. So my trial work period is only affected by those months in which i exceed one or the other or both of those criteria. Am i correct?

And, because SGA is averaged over a nine month period, (or six months in my case, if that's all i worked?), then if i had say, two months where i made $900, three months i made $400, and a month i only made $200, then the average of that is $533/mo so i didn't use any of my trial period. Right? Or, if i made $900 for four months, and $500 for two months, that averages out to $683/mo, and i used four months of my trial work period, (the months that i made $900). Right?

I really have no idea what i made, it fluctuated a great deal more than my examples and the last few months i didn't do any accounting at all because i was sick. I'll have to go back over my records but if it works like i just ^said, then at most i only used a couple months of my trial work period.

So, in theory, my proposed business pays me $400/mo, and it takes about twelve hours per week to accomplish, therefore so long as all the other assets/income remain property of the trust, i never exceed SGA. Right? And i can still draw my disability for six or seven months after the business is paid for and the trust gives it to me and i'm making $1,000/mo or whatever it makes. Right?

I'm wondering if i'm right.

Thanks,

The $810 SGA level and the amount that "kicks in" a TWP are 2 different things.

The trial work period kicks in when you make over $580 in a month. There's no 'average", it goes by monthly earnings. The 2 months you made $900 will count towards your trial work period, definately. As for the other months, even though they are below the $580 threshhold, they "may" be considered part of the TWP depending on the hours worked, the type of work, etc. You don't necessarily have to earn a certain amount in order for the SSA to deem it SGA. They go by different things, not just the monetary amount earned.

You have 9 months TOTAL TWP. If you used 2, you still have 7 left.

Thanks for the reply. I hadn't even seen that $580 figure, anyplace. I don't think. I got my figures from this post:

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showpost.php?p=734121&postcount=2

Wherein it is said:

ellencee said:

SGA is combined, or averaged, over a nine-month period of time, not a consecutive nine months but any nine months in a five-year period. If you earn $300 this month, and $1700 next month, you just used two of the nine months in your trial work period. Additionally, no matter how much you earn, if SSA determines that your income producing efforts equal 20 or more hours a week of work or active participation in income production, the months in which your efforts are 20+ hours per week are also part of your nine month trial work period.

Click to expand...

...is that inaccurate? Or is it just we're talking about different things? It's also entirely possible at any given time, that i don't understand anything i'm told. That's one of the reasons i get disability.

(EDIT: I mean i still need to understand how to figure my TWP usage. If the figure for any given month is $580, and requires substantial work activity, then i'm very sure there were a lot of months that didn't count.)

So are you saying that if i make say, $600/mo. then i'm using up my trial work period, but i may be able to retain my benefits if the activity doesn't rise to the level of SGA? Or, as given in my example, i only make $400/mo. and i only work 12 hrs/wk then i likely don't cross either of these fuzzy lines?

I've been trying to get hold of the person i mentioned up ^there who worked while on SSD. Because i don't know much about her situation, but i know that she worked without fear because she had it precisely figured out how much work she could do and how much she could earn. And i have a vague feeling like i've heard of similar situations. I just can't find her, or any other examples.

I don't suppose it does any good to point out the stupidity of this cumulative policy with respect to the Trial Work Period. I worked, i got sick, and now i don't have that breaking in period to try again. Grr. Anyone mind if i grouch about it publically? I mean i could see where it could be abused, people going to work for eight months and then having "relapses" and then doing it again. But they should punish people like that, not everybody.

Anyway if it's not so cut and dried, then what ought i to do? Should i spend money on a lawyer to figure out exactly how much i can work and earn, or is he not going to be able to tell me either? The difference being, if i can retain my benefits while i'm paying for the business, then i can grow the business. Elsewise, i'm just making do. Which is OK, i'll do that, because at present i can't afford my medication so i'm not even making do.

Thanks again.
JB

HAHA!

I just stumbled across this:

http://www.workworld.org/wwwebhelp/sga.htm

SSA will go beyond looking at earnings only when circumstances indicate that an employee may actually be engaging in SGA or might be in a position to defer or suppress earnings – for example, an individual working for a small corporation owned by a relative or by the individual. If evidence shows the individual is in a position to defer or suppress his/her earnings, than the work activity is comparable to an individual who is self-employed.

Click to expand...

Emphasis mine.

M'gosh i think maybe they've seen it all already?

Just thought i'd leave this in the archive for future reference. Take note, heed warning, all ye who would try to fool SSA just so you can get a boost back to an ordinary life.

Meanwhile it appears i'm most definitely gonna need a lawyer. Or to heck with it all, and just go back to work.

Cheers

From :

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR83-33-di-03.html

"PERTINENT HISTORY: Under the disability provisions of the law, except within the trial work period (TWP) provisions, a person who is engaging in SGA is not eligible for payment of disability benefits. SGA is defined in the regulations as work "that involves doing significant physical or mental activities . . . [and] is the kind of work usually done for pay or profit. . . ." "Significant activities" are useful in the accomplishment of a job and have economic value. Work may be substantial even if it is performed on a part-time basis, or even if the individual does less, is paid less, or has less responsibility than in previous work. Work activity by an employee is gainful if it is the kind of work usually done for pay, whether in-cash or in-kind. Activities such as self-care, household tasks, unpaid training, hobbies, therapy, school attendance, clubs, social programs, etc., are not generally considered to be SGA."

From:

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/twp.html

"During a trial work period, a beneficiary receiving Social Security disability benefits may test his or her ability to work and still be considered disabled. We do not consider services performed during the trial work period as showing that the disability has ended until services have been performed in at least 9 months (not necessarily consecutive) in a rolling 60-month period. In 2004, any month in which earnings exceed $580 is considered a month of services for an individual's trial work period. In 2005, this monthly amount increases to $590."

Now, if you will notice the part I put in bold text above: "In 2004, any month in which earnings exceed $580 is considered a month of services for an individual's trial work period."

"ANY MONTH IN WHICH EARNINGS EXCEED $580 is considered a month of services for an individual's trail work period."

I love ellencee to death... but she's wrong about this instance. They don't "average" anything, it's on a month by month basis.

If you earn over $580 in a month, it triggers your TWP, and you just used 1 month of the 9 allowed. Period. In the example EC used that you quoted, the month that $300 was earned would NOT trigger a TWP month. A month of $1,700 in earnings WOULD.

You can earn as much or as little as you like during any month of your TWP. If you make $2,000 a month for 5 or 6 months, then that's fine. Your benefits still continue and are not cut in any way. But, it takes the magic number of $580 earned IN A MONTH (not an average over 9 months, or 2 or 3 months, etc.) to trigger the TWP for that month. If you eart LESS than the $580, it doesn't trigger a TWP at all. BUT... be careful. If you only earn $500 a month, yet you do it for a year, SSA may say that since you've worked steadily they don't consider you disabled any longer, even though its under the TWP amount AND the SGA level. That goes back to the first paragraph I posted... telling you that it's not only earnings they look at but other issues as well.

And, of course you can consult with an attorney on this, but...

If you are running a business, whether or not you show your earnings as $580 or more...

The fact is you're doing substantial WORK, to run that business. Again, this goes back to the first paragraph I posted in my previous post.

SGA is defined in the regulations as work "that involves doing significant physical or mental activities . . . [and] is the kind of work usually done for pay or profit. . . ."

Running a business involves significant mental activity, and sometimes physical as well.

It's also the type of work usually done for pay, and most certainly for profit. (Otherwise, why have a business?).

See what I'm saying?

I get it, but still i know people, and i know of people, who work while drawing disability. That's more a question than a statement... i guess i'm asking how it really works, in the real world. How they do that, how they get away with it if the rules are so dang strict.

Seriously, SSA makes no allowances for people who just aren't as abled as they used to be, but still want to work? Nor for the fact that Social Security isn't enough to live on?

Well, rats. I guess it's just a tough world. Doesn't really matter, i need to go back to work anyway.

Thanks for the info!

I don't know how they "get away with it". Personally, I'd be happy to go back to work and drop the disability completely. Like you said, it's certainly not enough to live on, but then again, that's not the purpose of SS either.

To put it bluntly... if you're able to work, you aren't disabled according to the SSA. Not disabled means no more disability benefits. But, they do give you the 9 month TWP to see about getting "adjusted" back into the work force. During those 9 months, they don't cut your benefits. You still draw your full amount. That way, if you try to work but have to quit because of your disabilty you still do have your original benefits coming into your household.