58/45 in Virginia - hhheelllpp =\

What is the name of your state? - Virginia (VA)

This evening at 11:40 I was pulled over in Virginia Beach, VA allegedly going 58 mph in a 45 mph zone. D J Fioie (or D J Fiore .. it's hard to read his name) was waiting for people to miss the sign(s) for the switch from 55 mph on that road to 45 mph. I think it's a pretty douche move to be waiting in that kind of place to see people speed, but it's way too late for that.

This evening it was raining pretty hard, so the roads were pretty slick (I'm not sure if that helps). I was accused of violating lawsection 21-317.

And it was obviously dark .. so i'm not sure if that helps at all. There was mist on my wind shield as well, and the mist only became obvious when the windshield passed under the orange street lights .. but remained invisible while not directly under the lights.


And the last thing - I'm driving a brand new 03 Jetta GLI VR6. It's a new car, and drives differently than anything I've ever driven before -- I'm not trying to act like an arrogant *******, but I'm just wondering if that can offer me some help too? (In fact, if this ticket actually hits my record, I'll not be able to afford the insurance assoicated with this car ..)


I'm not sure if any of this helps. . but is there ANNNYYTTHHINNGGG I can do to get off of this ticket?


I can offer you any more information that you would need to help me out .. and THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

(I really can't be happier that there is a palce where I can get some help .. thanks)

Also, I forgot to add this .. but what are some of the adminstrative ways to get off of a ticket?

Like .. if I show up and the cop isn't there, is the case dismissed? What if I ask for a continuuance .. and just hope the cop doesn't show? I'll play the loops in the system to get off of this ticket too .. i'm pretty desperate.

thanks again amigos =)

I'm from Va beach as well...
I know of someone who tried that continuance move and it worked. He got lucky. Can't say you'll have the same outcome though.

Well, I'm definitely going to go with the continuance, but I'm not sure what my plan will be.

I want to also try the change of venue thing, so I can throw the cop for another loop, but for now I'm not sure.

I've also decided that I will move for discovery to get all the records associated with this copper's training records with this radar gun, what kind of tickets he's been giving, etc.

I've also got the weather information for the location where I got caught, since hte cop put down "UR" for the weather conditions. It was raining very hard during that day, and as such driving on the road including quite a bit of mist from people's tires. (I'll argue that his version of the weather was incorrect, and at the very least there was impairment of my vision of the signs .. and thus the change from 55 mph to 45 mph .. and I have a good ability to fight that because I can argue that the mist on the windshield is invisible until light gets reflects in it)

I'm also trying to do that interrogatory .. so I can find out exactly where the cop was positioned on the road so I can find out if it was possible that cosine radar thingy could've been in play when he took his reading.



ANY advice you could give me on this info would be quite helpful.



Honestly, if I was just randomly going 58 mph in a 45 mph zone, thne I would pay this ticket, because it was me obviously being a jackass on the road.

But this time around .. where the cop is picking people off that miss a 45 mph sign to slow down .. that's just not right. I'm going to fight this
Anyway, if you can help me, i'd love it. Thanks =)

I really don't know where to start on this one so I will defer to JETX. I can't wait.

lwpat said:

I really don't know where to start on this one so I will defer to JETX. I can't wait.

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I can't tell if that's a good thing or a bad thing .. but my better judgement is hinting at an upcoming flame.

And to prempt it, i'll apologize in advance for not knowing this forum's specific rules. I just hoped I could get some help.

aliljet said:

I can't tell if that's a good thing or a bad thing .. but my better judgement is hinting at an upcoming flame.

And to prempt it, i'll apologize in advance for not knowing this forum's specific rules. I just hoped I could get some help.

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Then you've come to the wrong place. The usual replies here are ridicule served with a generous helping of condescension.

If the cite is really that important to you, get an attorney in the county where you have to go to court. VA is notorious for overcharging then reducing the charge if the defendant pays a large CASH fine. An attorney can help negotiate the minefield that is VA and mitigate much of the damage.

Sidebar added: Several states have limititations on just how close to a change in the limit that the new speed can be enforced, a response to abuses by speedtraps. I don't know about VA but your attorney will know this.

James Young said:

Then you've come to the wrong place. The usual replies here are ridicule served with a generous helping of condescension.

If the cite is really that important to you, get an attorney in the county where you have to go to court. VA is notorious for overcharging then reducing the charge if the defendant pays a large CASH fine. An attorney can help negotiate the minefield that is VA and mitigate much of the damage.

Sidebar added: Several states have limititations on just how close to a change in the limit that the new speed can be enforced, a response to abuses by speedtraps. I don't know about VA but your attorney will know this.

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So, what you're saying is that it would be almost impossible for me .. a single person, to battle this accusation in court? I've heard success stories .. but is it more likely that an attorney will be able to give me some support in getting this fine removed?

And I've got to do that interrogatory to find out where the cop was exactly located to determine how close the speed limit change he was ..


Also, I've got another question -- how does the change of venue thing work? I go to school at the university of virginia up in charlottesville .. and if I get a continuance, it will likely fall into my spring semester. Is it possible to get a change of venue to that location?

Anyway, even if some people don't want to help, the people that have helped have been great, and I couldn't be more impressed or thankful. =)

aliljet writes:


So, what you're saying is that it would be almost impossible for me .. a single person, to battle this accusation in court? I've heard success stories .. but is it more likely that an attorney will be able to give me some support in getting this fine removed?

No, it’s not impossible and I’ll send you some sources by PM. I urge all drivers to fight all citations because the purpose of the law has been perverted from its original purpose and fighting cites is one way to put brakes on the abuse of law. What I was trying to do was warn you that far too many of the usual responses in these fora are not helpful but rather are little more than ridicule, “locals” having a little malicious fun with those who dare to ask questions Read a few of the threads and it will be apparent.

I am a little confused by your reference to "this fine thing." Have you alread pled guilty and paid a fine? If you have it's too late to do anything about it.

And I've got to do that interrogatory to find out where the cop was exactly located to determine how close the speed limit change he was ..
If possible, you need to go back to the scene and try to figure that out.

Also, I've got another question -- how does the change of venue thing work? I go to school at the university of virginia up in charlottesville .. and if I get a continuance, it will likely fall into my spring semester. Is it possible to get a change of venue to that location?

The odds of getting a change of venue on a speeding cite are nil, especially if the cite was issued by one of the chickensh!t speedtraps that are just after the money. It might be possible to begin de novo in a real county court after the inevitable guilty verdict in the kangaroo courts that characterize the speed control industry.

I'm also a little confused by the apparent importance you place on avoiding this verdict/fine. Do you have a history of cites? Are you out of points and your license will be suspended if found guilty? Is the concern over the surcharges on future insurance premiums?

James Young said:

aliljet writes:
No, it’s not impossible and I’ll send you some sources by PM. I urge all drivers to fight all citations because the purpose of the law has been perverted from its original purpose and fighting cites is one way to put brakes on the abuse of law. What I was trying to do was warn you that far too many of the usual responses in these fora are not helpful but rather are little more than ridicule, “locals” having a little malicious fun with those who dare to ask questions Read a few of the threads and it will be apparent.

I am a little confused by your reference to "this fine thing." Have you alread pled guilty and paid a fine? If you have it's too late to do anything about it.

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I've not yet paid a fine, but I'd be more that willing to pay a fine in exchange for a masked ticket -- thus avoiding the greedy eyes of my insurance company. My goal is to just pay this fine, and not have to worry about my record being slandered by this god awful ticket.

James Young said:

aliljet writes:
If possible, you need to go back to the scene and try to figure that out.

Click to expand...

I was reading that it would be possible to actually submit questions to the cop to get all the details of the way the car was positioned, the number of times the radra gun was used, etc ,etc. I'd like to get a more detailed regiment of information regarding how the cop was getting people that evening. Is this possible?

James Young said:

aliljet writes:
The odds of getting a change of venue on a speeding cite are nil, especially if the cite was issued by one of the chickensh!t speedtraps that are just after the money. It might be possible to begin de novo in a real county court after the inevitable guilty verdict in the kangaroo courts that characterize the speed control industry.

Click to expand...

I was just trying to get a change of venue to throw the cop for a loop, and prehaps make it easier for me to get access to the courts since I'll be in college at the time .. and if it's possible to make this happen at all, I'd be interesting in knowing how. =)

James Young said:

aliljet writes:
I'm also a little confused by the apparent importance you place on avoiding this verdict/fine. Do you have a history of cites? Are you out of points and your license will be suspended if found guilty? Is the concern over the surcharges on future insurance premiums?

Click to expand...

Basically, I'm a second year student at UVA and am 19 years old .. and I drive a "sports car" which means my insurance is already phenomenal. With this ticket on my record, my rates will increase dramatically, and my opportunity to own this car will be shot.

Honestly, if I was speeding in a neighborhood, or something .. I'd take this like a man, because I was resonsible, but since I was got by a ****er through a speed trap where the speed limit changes, I'm super pissed. It's really .. a travesty when the cops are out there using the law to shake people's wallets dry. And not to mention the fact that it's not just a few hundred dollar fine, it's also the inevitable loss of thousands of dollars to an insurance company.

Anyway, that's the end of my rant .. thanks for your reply dude =)

aliljet writes:

I've not yet paid a fine, but I'd be more that willing to pay a fine in exchange for a masked ticket -- thus avoiding the greedy eyes of my insurance company. My goal is to just pay this fine, and not have to worry about my record being slandered by this god awful ticket.

That is a worthwhile goal. Once again, I suggest that you use an attorney in the county where the alleged offense occurred. He will be more likely to be able to plea the charge down to a non-moving offense, especially since 58 in a 45 is pretty minor and he plays golf with the judge and prosecutor. This will likely involve a larger fine but a non-reported (or at least non-moving) conviction. That would also preclude you from having to do the legal research and travel.

I was reading that it would be possible to actually submit questions to the cop to get all the details of the way the car was positioned, the number of times the radra gun was used, etc ,etc. I'd like to get a more detailed regiment of information regarding how the cop was getting people that evening. Is this possible?

Yes. That’s called discovery. Check your Private Messages.

I was just trying to get a change of venue to throw the cop for a loop, and prehaps make it easier for me to get access to the courts since I'll be in college at the time .. and if it's possible to make this happen at all, I'd be interesting in knowing how. =)

I doubt seriously whether it is possible but consult your attorney. Keep in mind that traffic courts are not set up for the convenience of the defendant but rather for the convenience of the court.

Basically, I'm a second year student at UVA and am 19 years old .. and I drive a "sports car" which means my insurance is already phenomenal. With this ticket on my record, my rates will increase dramatically, and my opportunity to own this car will be shot.

Honestly, if I was speeding in a neighborhood, or something .. I'd take this like a man, because I was resonsible, but since I was got by a ****er through a speed trap where the speed limit changes, I'm super pissed. It's really .. a travesty when the cops are out there using the law to shake people's wallets dry. And not to mention the fact that it's not just a few hundred dollar fine, it's also the inevitable loss of thousands of dollars to an insurance company.

Speed control is a multi-hundred billion dollar a year industry. You should be p!ssed about tactics that you consider dishonorable and I urge you to continue to fight them. I’ve been fighting traffic control idiocy for 47 years now and we have made important progress – NMSL is now history and we have the safest highways in automotive history – but can always use another voice.

Hey James, I just checked my PMs, and thanks a LOT for that info, it's quite helpful.

I'll probably file my discovery request on monday or tuesday to get as much information as I can -- I've not read the specific statutes regarding this in my state, but it can't hurt to try.

The change of venue thing will probably not work out very well .. since it wouldn't really work in the court's favor to move this case. It might work in my favor, but everyone else would be affected negatively. I might still give it a go, just to see how it works out.

I'm not sure what my plan with the continuance is -- I'll have to indicate that I hoenstly need more time to complete my case.

For now, I'm working on the discovery, and then over time things shoudl get better.

Any suggestions for sending out the discovery request? (or any sample letters or anything?)

So you thought it was over? Well, hear this ..

So, after reading a million sites about this kind of thing, and preparing a defense (complete with pictures, diagrams, equations, measurements, etc, etc -- for real), I arrive in court. It's the 11th of January at 11:00 AM in Traffic Court Room C. I check the docket, and at first I don't see my name, but then I see it's listed as the first name on the list, and everyone else is there for Officer Kellogg (or something). My case is with Officer Fiore, and I talk with the bailiff (forgive speling) wondering about what's going to happen. He tells me I just have to wait patiently, and my turn will come along.

Tick Tock. Everyone leaves, and then I'm sitting there wondering what's going on. The Judge (McMinnon or something) calls me up and asks me what I'm doing there. I tell her that my case was scheduled for today, and she asks me if I have the paperwork regarding my case -- which I did have, which she didn't have. It was just a copy of the ticket. Then the clerk says that I'm scheduled for that day, and that officer hadn't shown up.

Now, this is the point where I was getting happier and happier. I've heard time and time again about how cops don't show, and then cases are dismissed. Too bad I was wrong! The Judge, neglecting the fact that I had missed goign to work from 9-3 (6 hours, well above the court costs and associated fees as well as the cost of the ticket .. but not the insurance) told me that I would have to come in again. At first she asked me what day I would be available, and she offered a day in Februrary, but as it turns out, my cousin has a wedding shcedled during that time period, so it didn't work. Then she asked me again, and I told her that I wasn't sure when I was going to be open, becuase I wasn't sure when my spring break for my college kicked in. My college being the reason I got this case continued in the first place -- it's 4 hours away in Charlottesville, VA. (The first date also happened to be on an exam day)

Now things start taking a turn for the worst. She says that my plans aren't going to work, and she picks a date in March without even consulting me. Then I ask her if there is any more I can say or do regarding the case, and she says I can only offer a plea of guilty. The bailiff, who was very cool if I might say, comes by and motions for me to stay calm .. then the judge leaves.

So here I am, in an empty courtroom with a cool bailiff and clerk. It's 2:30, I've not eaten since 8, I've stayed up till 2 in the morning just preparing this case, and I'm in my best clothes sweating now. They tell me that the prosecution has an opportunity for a continuance as well -- and the Judge basically has a huge shaft in some nether region and doesn't like disimssing cases (though she dismissed quite a few). So I walk out, knowing I'll have to drive 8 hours to arrive at this court again .. to try all this bull**** out one more time.


So, I went from bored, to happy, to pretty pissed. So, talking to you in a pretty pissed off mood, I'm trying to see how I can make this situation better work to my benefit. Any help you might offer, I would gladly accept.

Thanks amigos =)

P.S. Will I get the same douche bag judge?

I have to wonder, can I move to dismiss this case due to a failure to prosecute? What ar emy options in this situation?

Can I do any of this without having to wait till my new court date hwen the prosecution might show .. i.e, the officer.

Helpp! =)

aliljet said:

I have to wonder, can I move to dismiss this case due to a failure to prosecute? What ar emy options in this situation?

Can I do any of this without having to wait till my new court date hwen the prosecution might show .. i.e, the officer.

Helpp! =)

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you should have used the "ftp" verbage at the first court date....dont know why the judge didnt dismiss it anyway.

dont know what material you were pm'd, but your defense should be 2 pronged. sounds like you are working on the first pronge...challanging the radar use and validity of the reading.
the second should be your challenging the legality of the 45 mph sign.
the first requirement of a posted speed limit sign less than the state maximum is an engineering study. i bet there is no study for that piece of roadway. if there is a study, is the 85th percentile between 41 and 45 mph? if not, is there engineering justification for the lower posted limit?
is the sign easily visible and not blocked?
is the bottom of the sign less than 7 ft from the ground?

these are items that would help get your case dismissed