Pledge of Allegiance

littlebirdy27 · Dec 19, 2004

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Arkansas
Hi, this is my first time posting here. I hope I'm posting in the right category.
I am in 11th grade in High School and recently I was yelled at by a teacher in front of all my peers for not standing to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Afterwards, she told me that I had to stand to say the pledge. I will not go into why I do not say the pledge because it is personal reasons. I just want to know if this is something that a teacher can tell me to do. Here are some links that made me start thinking this was wrong:
http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/WVir/
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3047
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=10196

Thanks.

I AM ALWAYS LIABLE · Dec 19, 2004

My response:

Only a Pinko Communist would refuse to recite the Pledge. Are you a Pinko Communist?

Damn! Where is Senator Joseph McCarthy now when we need him?

IAAL

HomeGuru · Dec 19, 2004

littlebirdy27 said:
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Arkansas
Hi, this is my first time posting here. I hope I'm posting in the right category.
I am in 11th grade in High School and recently I was yelled at by a teacher in front of all my peers for not standing to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Afterwards, she told me that I had to stand to say the pledge. I will not go into why I do not say the pledge because it is personal reasons. I just want to know if this is something that a teacher can tell me to do. Here are some links that made me start thinking this was wrong:

**A: you should pack up and relocate to Iraq. Then you don't have to say the Pledge.

stevek3 · Dec 19, 2004

littlebirdy27 said:
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Arkansas
Hi, this is my first time posting here. I hope I'm posting in the right category.
I am in 11th grade in High School and recently I was yelled at by a teacher in front of all my peers for not standing to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Afterwards, she told me that I had to stand to say the pledge. I will not go into why I do not say the pledge because it is personal reasons. I just want to know if this is something that a teacher can tell me to do. Here are some links that made me start thinking this was wrong:
http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/WVir/
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3047
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=10196

Thanks.

Your teacher was way out-of-line, but I'm wondering why they're still making people say that zombie Pledge in the 11th grade. Must be a Southern thing. I didn't even know any schools in 2004 were still in the Pledge of Allegiance business in the first place. We were forced to say it in elementary school, but that's only because everybody told us that Brezhnev, Mao and Castro were blowing plumes of red smoke down my underwear.

seniorjudge · Dec 19, 2004

We really shouldn't encourage 11th graders to read the Constitution and Bill of Rights and subversive crap like that....Might give them ideas!

CdwJava · Dec 19, 2004

stevek3 said:
Your teacher was way out-of-line, but I'm wondering why they're still making people say that zombie Pledge in the 11th grade. Must be a Southern thing. I didn't even know any schools in 2004 were still in the Pledge of Allegiance business in the first place. We were forced to say it in elementary school, but that's only because everybody told us that Brezhnev, Mao and Castro were blowing plumes of red smoke down my underwear.

That's odd ... its still said in CA public schools regularly ... even that 'evil' "under God" statement!

Huh ... funny ... society hasn't collapsed because of the pledge ... go figure.

Some people just have too much time to worry about inconsequential stuff.

And to answer the OP's question, I do not believe that they can force you to stand for the pledge, only that you do not disrupt the activity. The ACLU will likely go to bat for you because it will mean easy press and a quick payout for them. Give the local chapter a call.

- Carl

CdwJava · Dec 19, 2004

seniorjudge said:
We really shouldn't encourage 11th graders to read the Constitution and Bill of Rights and subversive crap like that....Might give them ideas!

The problem is, they can say, "I know my rights!" but probably nary a one of them could recite any of the actually written ones.

- Carl

littlebirdy27 · Dec 19, 2004

CdwJava said:
The problem is, they can say, "I know my rights!" but probably nary a one of them could recite any of the actually written ones.

- Carl

Actually, I know most of my rights and where they come from. In History now, we learn about the Bill of Rights one Amendment at a time, and now we're going over the other Amendments to the Constitution. We are also taught how to interpret these Rights. It's like teachers teach us our rights and then turn around and limit them and then expect us not to do anything because we know are being wronged.

And to the people who think I'm bad for not saying the pledge:
I don't think I have to defend my reasons for not saying the pledge. It's not even about the "under God" part, because I am a Southern Baptist Christian. I dont' think the pledge needs to be said at the beginning of every day at our school. The other students turn the pledge into some kind of joke! They say it in weird voices or salute it weird on purpose. The principal who says is over the intercom says is extremely disrespectfully and half of the time forgets the words. I don't want to be a part of that, which is why I don't say it.
I also don't think it's necessary to pledge my allegiance to my country every day. I love this country, but having to pledge my allegiance to it every day sounds like something out of George Orwell's 1984.

CdwJava · Dec 19, 2004

Well, I never said you were "bad" for not wanting to say it, but it just seems to be a rather tiresome waste of everyone's time to endlessly fight this battle. Yes, the school is (legally) wrong ... but does it kill anyone to just STAND?

The inevitable court fight will give lawyers (likely from the ACLU) a little more operating capitol, and remove money that could otherwise be spent on school supplies or staff. It's hard to say which is the sillier position - the side bringing the action, or the side fighting already settled law.

- Carl

littlebirdy27 · Dec 19, 2004

CdwJava said:
Well, I never said you were "bad" for not wanting to say it, but it just seems to be a rather tiresome waste of everyone's time to endlessly fight this battle. Yes, the school is (legally) wrong ... but does it kill anyone to just STAND?

The inevitable court fight will give lawyers (likely from the ACLU) a little more operating capitol, and remove money that could otherwise be spent on school supplies or staff. It's hard to say which is the sillier position - the side bringing the action, or the side fighting already settled law.

- Carl

I know you didn't say I was "bad." It wasn't directed toward you.
So in other words you're telling me to give up? That's kind of a crushing thing to tell an 11th grader.

But no, I wouldn't want to take it to court anyway.

CdwJava · Dec 19, 2004

littlebirdy27 said:
I know you didn't say I was "bad." It wasn't directed toward you.
So in other words you're telling me to give up? That's kind of a crushing thing to tell an 11th grader.

But no, I wouldn't want to take it to court anyway.

Life is full of "battles". You can either choose to fight something at every step and live life with a chip on your shoulder, and you can learn to pick and choose those fights that have every meaning.

I'm not telling you to DO anything. If it were my son, I'd tell him to at least stand and not to do ANYTHING that might disrupt the class. With approximately 87% of a school's budget being for salary related expenditures, I'd rather not see the books for the next school year be passed on because the ACLU won their attorney's fees ... not counting the district's attorney fees.

If you want, keep seeking information to advise the school of their position, but THIS just does not seem that big a deal to me to stand my ground and fight for. I prefer to choose my fights.

But, that's just me.

You have to do what you want to do. But keep in mind that disruptive behavior CAN get you in big trouble. And this close to your graduating year - and college applications just around the corner, a suspension or expulsion can have a very bad effect on your future.

- Carl

I AM ALWAYS LIABLE · Dec 19, 2004

littlebirdy27 said:
I know you didn't say I was "bad." It wasn't directed toward you.
So in other words you're telling me to give up? That's kind of a crushing thing to tell an 11th grader.

But no, I wouldn't want to take it to court anyway.

My response:

Yeah, just as I thought. You're a little friggin' Commie. How do you think the Bill of Rights came to be? The Constitution? The Declaration of Independence? Do you think it was just some people writing the "rules"?

People - - lot's of people - - men and women DIED for those "rules". But, that doesn't matter to you, does it. No, of course not. You're just a punk.

You know - - all the school is asking you to do is to say a few words. Is that too much to ask for all the people who died to allow you to "question" the rules?

No. You'd rather bow to peer pressure. Why don't you be your own person, instead of doing what YOU think your stupid, ignorant, "friends" want you to do?

IAAL

littlebirdy27 · Dec 19, 2004

CdwJava said:
Life is full of "battles". You can either choose to fight something at every step and live life with a chip on your shoulder, and you can learn to pick and choose those fights that have every meaning.

I'm not telling you to DO anything. If it were my son, I'd tell him to at least stand and not to do ANYTHING that might disrupt the class. With approximately 87% of a school's budget being for salary related expenditures, I'd rather not see the books for the next school year be passed on because the ACLU won their attorney's fees ... not counting the district's attorney fees.

If you want, keep seeking information to advise the school of their position, but THIS just does not seem that big a deal to me to stand my ground and fight for. I prefer to choose my fights.

But, that's just me.

You have to do what you want to do. But keep in mind that disruptive behavior CAN get you in big trouble. And this close to your graduating year - and college applications just around the corner, a suspension or expulsion can have a very bad effect on your future.

- Carl

I'm not dumb enough to say that I don't realize that you're making good points.
However, 90% of my school's budget will go to funding sports this year, whether it be buying that new baseball field that we don't need or building that new gymnasium we also don't need. I'm sure I'd feel different if I were athletic, but it's hard to watch when you're like "Hey! Wait, there's already five baseball fields over there!" or "Look at that gymnasium we built last year. Why another?"
The last time our school got new computers was probably when computers were invented. That's exaggerated a little. Some of our textbooks have messages written in them from 1995, I'm sure. Our school is known widely for not caring about academics, just athletics.
Which is why when a highschool looks at my scores and says, "Wow! He has a 4.0 GPA and a high ACT and SAT score, but oh wait, he graduated from that High School. That's not saying much then."

Maybe High School just sucks in general? I don't know. Someone please tell me it gets better.

CdwJava · Dec 19, 2004

littlebirdy27 said:
However, 90% of my school's budget will go to funding sports this year, whether it be buying that new baseball field that we don't need or building that new gymnasium we also don't need.

I'll bet that if you look at the REAL budget - and what they have as discretionary funding - you will find that this 90% figure is completely false. They may have a sum representative of that amount, but chances are real good that the money comes from sources that are to be used for capital improvements only and not for books, teachers, or most other items that directly aid the students.

The last time our school got new computers was probably when computers were invented. That's exaggerated a little.

Believe it or not, education was done just fine before computers. The CA 8th grade exit exam for JUST History form circa 1955 was tougher than my US History Final in college! We took the 8th grade test as a primer and I scored highest in my class and I got an 88% on that one ... it was a bitch! I got 96% on my final.

And when I was in high school, our "computer" was a ticker tape fed typewriter with a type ball and reams of paper ... and we got a pretty decent education.

"Stuff" does not make for a good education.

Maybe High School just sucks in general? I don't know. Someone please tell me it gets better.

It's what you - and your parents - make of it. If you let it suck - it will. My wife and I don't let our parents mire and wallow - we work with them. They study every day. If their teachers are lacking, they will still get a quality education because we are there to fill in the gaps.

Maybe your school IS substandard - I don't know. But, I can only encourage you to concentrate on the education and not the willy-nilly stuff surrounding it.

- Carl

littlebirdy27 · Dec 19, 2004

CdwJava said:
I'll bet that if you look at the REAL budget - and what they have as discretionary funding - you will find that this 90% figure is completely false. They may have a sum representative of that amount, but chances are real good that the money comes from sources that are to be used for capital improvements only and not for books, teachers, or most other items that directly aid the students.

Believe it or not, education was done just fine before computers. The CA 8th grade exit exam for JUST History form circa 1955 was tougher than my US History Final in college! We took the 8th grade test as a primer and I scored highest in my class and I got an 88% on that one ... it was a bitch! I got 96% on my final.

And when I was in high school, our "computer" was a ticker tape fed typewriter with a type ball and reams of paper ... and we got a pretty decent education.

"Stuff" does not make for a good education.

It's what you - and your parents - make of it. If you let it suck - it will. My wife and I don't let our parents mire and wallow - we work with them. They study every day. If their teachers are lacking, they will still get a quality education because we are there to fill in the gaps.

Maybe your school IS substandard - I don't know. But, I can only encourage you to concentrate on the education and not the willy-nilly stuff surrounding it.

- Carl

Alright, good advice. I'll take it for what it is.
However, in today's world, no computer skills can mean no job. Not to mention you need a computer credit to graduate. Our school's really bombed out this year. The sophomore class that moved up was enormous and our school did not prepare for it. Our administration put off hiring more teachers until the middle of the first semester, messing up student schedules. Last year, because the schedule was so messed up, I got put in a class that sophomores weren't supposed to get into, and it has completely turned around my four-year high school plan. So you can understand why I'm a little mad at my high school.
But your advice will probably help this situation go smoother. There are better battles worth fighting.

Pledge of Allegiance

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littlebirdy27

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I AM ALWAYS LIABLE

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stevek3

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seniorjudge

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CdwJava

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littlebirdy27

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CdwJava

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littlebirdy27

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CdwJava

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