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chandlersgramma

Junior Member
What is the name of your state?Mi I have a grandson that is 18 mos old and have only seen him once because of my son's stubborness. He has issues he will not discuss with me and therefore will not let me see my grandchild. The mother sent me an email stating "GRandparents have no rights". Little does she now my Lawyer has already advised me to look into it. Why did you judge me Enasni? You sound rude and disrepectful. Keep your thoughts to yourself and don't judge people.
 


Ambr

Senior Member
http://www.equityfeminism.com/archives/years/2005/000015.html

Further Eroding Parents' Rights in Michigan

By Brian Carnell

Friday, January 28, 2005

The Republican-dominated legislature here in Michigan passed, and our Democratic Governor signed, a ridiculous law which forces parents who do not want their children to receive visits from their grandparents to defend such decisions in court.

The law is a bit complex. If two fit parents sign an affidavit opposing grandparent visitation, then a judge is required to abide by that decision -- but parents shouldn't have to go through such a silly process, and what if the parent is a single mother or father, or there is a divorce and the non-custodial and custodial parents disagree about grandparent visitation?

Then it all goes to court where the threshhold is pretty low. Basically the grandparents have to demonstrate the child would suffer mental, physical or emotional harm if deprived of regular visits with their grandchildren. Unless the parents can counter that the visits would not be in the best interests of the child, the court can order visitation against the wishes of the custodial parent.

Now my wife and I have very good relationships with my children's grandparents, but I can imagine a lot of situations where this wouldn't obtain. One of my grandmothers was a real piece of work whom I wouldn't let anywhere near my kids. On the other thand, I'm not sure I could put together a case that it wasn't in the best interests of the child to see such an individual.

Consider the following case -- suppose one of my daughter's grandparents was a vile racist, and my wife and I both agreed that we'd prefer he not have contact with my daughter. Under Michigan law, we could do that today, but we'd have to go both sign an affidavit and get lawyers involved. We can still do it, but its going to cost us.

Imagine a slightly different scenario. We have almost no contact with the grandparent, until he resurfaces after my wife dies an untimely death. In this scenario, I have to go to court and a judge has to weigh the emotional needs of the child to know her grandfather compared to my desire not to have this person associated with my child.

Under the law, this would be pretty straightforward -- I'd win every time. But he can refile very two years, and I have to keep hiring attorneys and dealing with this crap on a regular basis.

And what if the example isn't so straightforward. What if, for example, I convert to a religion that doesn't believe in contact with people who are not members of my faith? What if I become a right wing religious nut and I no longer want my child to have contact with one of my parent who happens to be a homosexual?

The point is not that any of these reasons are very good or very bad, but that courts should not be making these decisions at all.

A judge ruled unconstitutional Michigan's previous grandparents visitation law in 2003. Hopefully they'll do the same thing to this one.

Sources:

ENROLLED SENATE BILL No. 727. Michigan Legislature, January 3, 2005.

Highlights of the past week's action at the Capitol. Associated Press, January 8, 2005.

State Senate approves grandparent visitation law. Associated Press, December 8, 2004.
 

Ambr

Senior Member
http://www.michiganattorney.com/grandparent.htm

Grandparent Visitation
Michigan's New Grandparent Visitation Law
On January 3, 2005, Governor Granholm signed into law a new grandparent visitation law which takes effect immediately and creates new rights for grandparents and grandchildren in the State of Michigan to be able to have contact with each other under certain circumstances, if that relationship has been denied following the death, divorce, children born out of wedlock, or other family dysfunction.

This law will creates new rights for grandparents, following the Michigan Supreme Court decision of Derose v. Derose decided July 31, 2003, which held Michigan's old law unconstitutional. In that Michigan Supreme Court decision, the high court asked the Michigan legislature to redraft Michigan¹s law and insert new provisions in order to make Michigan's law constitutional so that grandparents and grandchildren would have access to see each other under these circumstances.

This new law provides the safeguards required by the Michigan Supreme Court, which would protect parental rights, as guaranteed by the Constitution, while setting in place standards for grandparents who have been denied seeing their grandchildren and gives them an opportunity to come to court and show why they should have a right to see their grandchildren, if that request has been unreasonably denied.

Standing
The new law provides grandparents, in the following circumstances, rights to request relief from the courts to see their grandchildren, if they have been denied visitation by a parent:

If there is a divorce, separate maintenance, or annulment action pending between the child¹s parents, or such an action has already been finalized.
The grandchild was born out-of-wedlock and the parents are not living together. However, this only applies, to grandparents of the alleged father if he has been declared legally to be the father of the child by a proper court proceeding and the child's father provides child support in accordance with his ability to provide sup-port or care for his child.
Legal custody of the child has been given to a person other than the child's parent or the child does not live in the parent's home (other than a child who has been adopted by a person who is not the child's stepparent).
A grandparent has taken care of a grandchild during the year before they request visitation, whether or not they have done so by a valid court order.
The child's parent, who is a child of the grandparent, is deceased. If a grandparent falls into any of the above categories and has been denied visitation, they would have a right to bring an action in the court that has heard a prior action (such as a divorce or paternity action). If there has been no prior action filed in the court, then a new action would have to be brought in the circuit court in the county where the grand-child resides. Any person, who has legal custody, or an order for parenting time of the child, must be given notice of the grandparent visitation request.
Hearing
A hearing will be granted on a grandparent's request in the circuit court/family division assigned to the case. At the hearing, the court will presume that a "fit" parent's decision to deny a grandparent visitation request does not create harm to the child (mental, physical or emotional health). The grandparent who is requesting visitation has the duty to show the court by a preponderance of the evidence (51% or more) that the parent's decision to deny visitation to the grandparent does create harm, either mental, physical, or to the emotional health, of the child. If the grandparent does not prove this to the court, by a preponderance of proof, the court will dismiss the grandparent's petition. But, if the court is convinced that the denial of visitation has the potential to create a risk of harm either to the physical, mental or emotional health of the child, then the court will follow a set of factors in determining what amount of grandparent visitation would be in the child's best interest.

Standards the Court Will Follow in Determining The Amount of Grandparent Visitation
In determining the amount of and duration of grandparenting time that a court will allow, if the court believes the grandparent has overcome the presumption of a fit parent, the court will look to the following set of factors and consider all of them in making its decision:

The love, affection, and other emotional ties existing between the grandparent and the child.
The length and quality of the prior relationship between the child and the grand-parent, the role performed by the grandparent, and the existing emotional ties of the child to the grandparent.
The grandparent's moral fitness.
The grandparent's mental and physical health.
The child's reasonable preference, if the court considers the child to be of sufficient age to express a preference.
The effect on the child of hostility between the grandparent and the parent of the child.
The willingness of the grandparent, except in the case of abuse or neglect, to encourage a close relationship between the child and the parent or parents of the child.
Any history of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse or neglect of any child by the grandparent.
Whether the parent's decision to deny, or lack of an offer of, grandparenting time is related to the child's well-being or is for some other unrelated reason.
Any other factor relevant to the physical and psychological well-being of the child.
If the court has determined that a grandparent has met the standard for rebutting the presumption, the court may refer the grandparent's request for visitation to mediation or to the friend of the court to attempt to resolve any dispute. Otherwise the court will decide the issue itself.

Agreement of Two Fit Parents to Deny Visitation
The law sets forth a provision that if two "fit" parents (not including a stepparent) sign an affidavit opposing a grandparent visitation request, then the court shall dismiss a grandparent's request for visitation.

Attorney Fees
The law sets forth that the court may order reasonable attorney fees to a prevailing party in any grandparent visitation request. This would be for either the parent or the grandparent, depending on the discretion of the court hearing the case.

Alternative Standard of Proof
The law indicates that in the event a challenge to this law is ever made regarding the standard which the Michigan legislature sets forth (preponderance of the evidence) through any appellate court challenge, and the Michigan Supreme Court later determines that the burden of proof should be made greater than preponderance of the evidence (such as clear and convincing evidence) then the statute would automatically revert from preponderance of the evidence to clear and convincing evidence. This section was intentionally put into the law by the Michigan legislature in order to make sure that Michigan's law will never be ruled unconstitutional again, and that grandparents will always be able to maintain their right to see their grandchildren, even if the burden of proof is changed from preponderance of the evidence to clear and convincing evidence.

For more information regarding this law or grandparents rights to visitation in the State of Michigan, please contact Nichols & Eberth, P.C. at 313-561-5700 or email us at [email protected].



NICHOLS & EBERTH, P.C.
22374 Garrison, Dearborn, MI 48124
401 S. Woodward, Suite 430, Birmingham, MI 48009

Free Initial Consultation
Call Dearborn office at (313) 561-5700 or
Call Birmingham office at (248) 952-1700 or
Call us toll free at 888-571-5700 or
Send us an email at [email protected]


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ENASNI

Senior Member
Look

chandlersgramma said:
What is the name of your state?Mi I have a grandson that is 18 mos old and have only seen him once because of my son's stubborness. He has issues he will not discuss with me and therefore will not let me see my grandchild. The mother sent me an email stating "GRandparents have no rights". Little does she now my Lawyer has already advised me to look into it. Why did you judge me Enasni? You sound rude and disrepectful. Keep your thoughts to yourself and don't judge people.
You asked I will answer. Why did I judge you?

I just read your other post and got a bad taste in my mouth.. You degrade your son, say he is not "man enough" that he has "characteristics of his father" that sounded bitter to me. You said he was fine till he got involved with the childs mother. You call her controlling saying she "speaks for him" and "thinks for him".
You think they are dangling the child in front of you like a puppet.

If my mother felt that way about me and my signifigant other, I think it would cause tension and stress. I would not necessarily want to introduce that into my household.

Look, don't worry what a faceless person has to say...work on your relationship with the Mom and your son...
 

chandlersgramma

Junior Member
bad taste

The bad taste is probably from all the bull you dish out! You don't know my situation so keep your insults to your self. I know my family and what they are like. I was degrading no one simply describing how my son acts! And he is very much like his father 1 of the reasons we are divorced. My ex could not make a decision if his life depended on it. I made all the decisions in the house, not because I wanted to because I had no choice. Yes my son came around and saw me and liked me before he met his girlfriend or the mother of his child. I call it like I see it and if you think that is bitter, wash your mouth out with some lime juice, then see which is more bitter!
You don't know how I feel about my son, I love him very much and would like to resolve our issue but he is the one preventing that from happening. I communicate through the mother and she is the one that says he will not talk to me. Funny how I have never heard that come right from him, only her, so why wouldn't I think she speaks acts and thinks for him. Believe me I have tried to work on the relationship with the mom and honestly, I can't say I care for her attitude or nastyness toward me when she has accused me of being the one that is immature, but it is me that would like this situation to get cleared up. I don't put my issues on the back shelf, I get them out in the open and deal with them.
Yes I know the dangled the child infront of me like a puppet. I was there, I lived it you didn't so leave me alone.
 

ENASNI

Senior Member
Fine

chandlersgramma said:
The bad taste is probably from all the bull you dish out! You don't know my situation so keep your insults to your self. I know my family and what they are like. I was degrading no one simply describing how my son acts! And he is very much like his father 1 of the reasons we are divorced. My ex could not make a decision if his life depended on it. I made all the decisions in the house, not because I wanted to because I had no choice. Yes my son came around and saw me and liked me before he met his girlfriend or the mother of his child. I call it like I see it and if you think that is bitter, wash your mouth out with some lime juice, then see which is more bitter!
You don't know how I feel about my son, I love him very much and would like to resolve our issue but he is the one preventing that from happening. I communicate through the mother and she is the one that says he will not talk to me. Funny how I have never heard that come right from him, only her, so why wouldn't I think she speaks acts and thinks for him. Believe me I have tried to work on the relationship with the mom and honestly, I can't say I care for her attitude or nastyness toward me when she has accused me of being the one that is immature, but it is me that would like this situation to get cleared up. I don't put my issues on the back shelf, I get them out in the open and deal with them.
Yes I know the dangled the child infront of me like a puppet. I was there, I lived it you didn't so leave me alone.
Fine I will leave you alone, after this... but I just have to say, I calls it likes I sees it...
Take a long hard look at yourself here, lady... You are picking a fight with me, yes I might have been a bit harsh, but ugh! your other post was just dripping with so much...grieviousness and asperity that I reacted. I guess it would have been asking too much for you to say.." Okay thats your opinion, you don't know me anyone have any legal advice?"

But now Ambr has posted twice here, and once on your other thread some information for you and instead of thanking her... you continue with the bickering to me.

That to me... spells Bitter with a capital B.
Taa Taa

Sometimes vindication tastes sweeter than revenge... :)
 

chandlersgramma

Junior Member
Enasni aka MISS MANNERS OR MR?

Ok so now you are miss manners! Thank you for telling me what I had already done, to thank ambr for the info that was past along to me, which is only thing I was looking for not your harshness or what ever it was. I am only defending my self to you and will not post anymore messages to you. I felt like I had to respond to you the way I did because of your animosity toward me. And don't respond to my boards anymore, I got what I needed from someone obviously with alot more compassion then your self :)
 
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FanofHal

Member
grandparents rights

Grandparents rights are very hard to get. You said you had a lawyer?
Let us know what happens. It is interesting to learn things on here.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
BelizeBreeze said:
A third-party interest in the child of an intact family stops at the parents wishes.

Plain and simple.
Absolutely...particularly in the case of the new statute in Michigan. If the OP's son and his wife both oppose court ordered visitation, its NOT going to happen.

Plus one of the previous poster's interpretions of the new MI statute is completely off the mark. It gives gps some pretty high hurdles to cross...the previous poster needs to read the statute itself, rather than relying on media interpretations.
 
S

Snave

Guest
What the HELL are grandparent rights

My daughter had a baby in May,2004.
The bio-father's mother came to the hospital. BIG DEAL. Last time she saw my Granddaughter. Her son was ordered to pay CS. The next day!!!! His mother filed for GP rights. My granddaughter is almost 9 months old and doesn't even know this woman. They went to mediation and the "wanna be GM" asked for Friday thru Sunday!! HELLO ! This child doesn't even know you. Did you know that RAP sheets are public records? She's been convicted of 4 felony's, including Identiy Theft !! What if she gets 1 hour with my daughter's baby and changes her identity? This is the most insane law I've ever heard of. Bio parents can decide what is best for there children. The Bio father didn't even show up Who would have thunk it???????????
 

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