unwanted access

What is the name of your state?Texas. My children don't want anything to do with their grandparent. I was wondering if their age would make a difference. I think I remember hearing that at 12 years or so, a child can tell the court they don't want visitation with a parent. Does this apply to GPs? Yes, I am still trying to get out of those 5 minutes. haha

taevgonzo said:

What is the name of your state?Texas. My children don't want anything to do with their grandparent. I was wondering if their age would make a difference. I think I remember hearing that at 12 years or so, a child can tell the court they don't want visitation with a parent. Does this apply to GPs? Yes, I am still trying to get out of those 5 minutes. haha

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Kids actually CANNOT tell the court that they don't want visitation with their parent at 12...that is a myth. Their wishes are given some level of weight (depends on the judge) regarding custody at about that age, but not visitation.

However...in a grandparent vs parent situation, I have yet to see a judge that will force older kids into grandparent visitation, if the kids are opposed.

We cannot advise you to be in contempt of court as a poster previously hinted that you do and you took the hint. https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=246504
You also, after posting your question before, in which you were specifically looking for a means to defy the courts order, fail to mention here that you are under a court order. An order to allow telephone access to your mother, with whom you have a personality conflict, pending a more permenant court order. You complain about her being controlling, yet, you are controlling as well. Did you think no one would notice? So why do you think that manipulating us here will serve your children's best interest in court? No doubt, you have worked long and hard to make your children's relationship with their grandmother, discordant.

rmet4nzkx said:

We cannot advise you to be in contempt of court as a poster previously hinted that you do and you took the hint. https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=246504
You also, after posting your question before, in which you were specifically looking for a means to defy the courts order, fail to mention here that you are under a court order. An order to allow telephone access to your mother, with whom you have a personality conflict, pending a more permenant court order. You complain about her being controlling, yet, you are controlling as well. Did you think no one would notice? So why do you think that manipulating us here will serve your children's best interest in court? No doubt, you have worked long and hard to make your children's relationship with their grandmother, discordant.

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Rmet...did you actually read her original post in her original thread? You owe this poster an apology.

Taevgonzo, I tried to send you a private message but you aren't set up to accept them. Send me a private message if you get a chance.

LdiJ said:

Rmet...did you actually read her original post in her original thread? You owe this poster an apology.

Taevgonzo, I tried to send you a private message but you aren't set up to accept them. Send me a private message if you get a chance.

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Of course I read the other thread and they had their opportunity to tell the judge their story and their story, including the children's testimony was considered by the court. She is unhappy with the court and looking for ways to defy the court and trying to manipulate us here.

YOU owe Taevgonzo an apology for making the suggestion that they move to FL to avoid enforcement of the court's order in TX. Not only would they be in contempt of court if they followed your advice, they would also be removing the children from their father at the same time, or did you fail to notice that the parents are not together. So, while it might be difficult to enforce the GPV order or a contempt order, it would not be difficult if those were the father's. While they may be in agreement now, if she flees with the children to FL dad is likely to object.

No once again, you are wanting to take this off line to conspire. Because this is your agenda, even though you at first advised to use restraint, you followed that by making a covert suggestion. This is not an objective response to OP. You know your actions are in violation of the TOS. You cannot continually conspire with posters to defy the courts.

taevgonzo said:

undefinedWhat is the name of your state? Texas.
I have a mean hateful abusive mother who sued me and my ex-husband for GP access to our 3 girls (ages 7,9 and 11). We, the fit parents are in agreement that it is not in the best interest of our children to associate with my psychotic mother. Our children have even told the judge themselves (in his private chambers) that they did not want to see grandma, and that she fights with me and her husband in front of them so they are afraid of her.) She is so nasty to everyone in her family and has managed to alienate herself completely over the years. She has always been controlling and very abusive towards me since I was a baby. I am now 34 and refuse to be her victim anymore. She is hell bent on proving that she can still control me by way of my children. Despite my ex's, my childrens' and my objection, plus a family member testifying that she is a witch (the other relatives were afraid to help for fear of retaliation), the judge is forcing my children to talk to her on the phone for 5 minutes every week for 90 days. This is not the final order. I am sure she can "behave" for 5 minutes a week. I am so worried he will give her more access when the 90 days are up. I am poor and doubt I can find the $ for an appeal but I will try none the less. Do you think I would be wasting my time if I appealed? Sure, it's only 5 minutes a week but still, every wednesday we will have to sit by the phone for an hour or two and wait for that damned woman to call for what 11 years? Then my children have to converse with someone they don't want anything to do with. (what if we want to go out of town or do something fun on that day. If we don't answer to her I will get in trouble? that hardly seems right. And what's worse, the judge didn't even want to hear from me or my ex. At first, the judge threatened to either give her overnight visitation or have her come to my home to see them if we didn't compromise with her. (This horrified me) Can he do that? Isn't that posession and not access? After hearing my testimony about being slapped, choked, kicked, scratched, etc by her he still insists on forcing her on us. I know her better than anyone and I know what's best for my children better than anyone, why am I being over ruled?
Can I avoid this ruling if I move to another state (and not tell where I am living) or would I be hunted down like a dog? I am extremely stressed by all this and would appreciate any information. And to those Grandparents out there insisting on their "rights", REMEMBER.. you were parents first. How would you like it if you were being shoved aside and told how to raise your children???

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LdiJ said:

Ok...take a big deep breath. The fact that the judge only gave her 5 minutes on the phone, once a week, is VERY significant. That is almost an insult to grandma. Think about it? 5 minutes? If you decide to go on a vacation somewhere while this order is in effect...then simply give grandma a number where the children can be reached that Wednesday. (you can send her a letter) Wait and see what the long-term outcome of your case will be.
In fact...you can give yourself alot of freedom on those Wednesdays by getting a prepaid cell phone that is used just for the purpose of Grandma talking to the kids. Give Grandma that number instead. That way you never have to notify her of anything.

While a judge CAN give a gp in TX the kind of visitation that the judge threatened you with previously, the odds of that happening here are fairly slim. Its probable (although not guaranteed) that the phone visitation is what you will be stuck with on a long term basis. That isn't going to give grandma the "control" that she wants...therefore she's likely to just "fade away".

However, I will tell you that in order for a gpv order to be enforced in another state, it has to be domesticated in that state. Florida's Supreme Court declared Florida's gpv laws as unconstitutional 6 or 7 years ago....based on the Florida constitution not the US constitution. Florida also won't domesticate orders from other states (if a parent has proper legal representation)....again because they are contrary to the Florida constitution.

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taevgonzo said:

Thank you for that information. I'll try the phone idea. And possibly move to Florida!

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rmet4nzkx said:

Of course I read the other thread and they had their opportunity to tell the judge their story and their story, including the children's testimony was considered by the court. She is unhappy with the court and looking for ways to defy the court and trying to manipulate us here.

YOU owe Taevgonzo an apology for making the suggestion that they move to FL to avoid enforcement of the court's order in TX. Not only would they be in contempt of court if they followed your advice, they would also be removing the children from their father at the same time, or did you fail to notice that the parents are not together. So, while it might be difficult to enforce the GPV order or a contempt order, it would not be difficult if those were the father's. While they may be in agreement now, if she flees with the children to FL dad is likely to object.

No once again, you are wanting to take this off line to conspire. Because this is your agenda, even though you at first advised to use restraint, you followed that by making a covert suggestion. This is not an objective response to OP. You know your actions are in violation of the TOS. You cannot continually conspire with posters to defy the courts.

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Hm...last I checked it was not illegal to:

1) Tell someone what the laws are in Florida.

2) For someone to move to Florida.

Rmet, I know that it drives you bonkers when I take someone off the board. Just as it drives me nuts when you post a message to someone like that post you made to taevgonzo. However I am not going to stop sending people to a place where they can get strong advice....and your not going to stop posting messages like that....so we are both just going to have to live with it.

LdiJ said:

Hm...last I checked it was not illegal to:

1) Tell someone what the laws are in Florida.

2) For someone to move to Florida.

Rmet, I know that it drives you bonkers when I take someone off the board. Just as it drives me nuts when you post a message to someone like that post you made to taevgonzo. However I am not going to stop sending people to a place where they can get strong advice....and your not going to stop posting messages like that....so we are both just going to have to live with it.

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Laura,
It is not illegal to tell someone the laws in FL, but if the purpose of that is to aid and abet the party to break other laws or defy a court order, we can't do that! If she flees with the children, without the court's permission, then her husband also loses access to his children, that is the part you didn't consider and that will take a court order to allow the move to FL.

If there wasn't a problem with what you were doing, there would be no need to take it off line. Please keep your personal agenda, just that, personal and your advice, objective and within the letter and spirit of the law. Don't give false or misleading advice.

rmet4nzkx said:

Laura,
It is not illegal to tell someone the laws in FL, but if the purpose of that is to aid and abet the party to break other laws or defy a court order, we can't do that! If she flees with the children, without the court's permission, then her husband also loses access to his children, that is the part you didn't consider and that will take a court order to allow the move to FL.

If there wasn't a problem with what you were doing, there would be no need to take it off line. Please keep your personal agenda, just that, personal and your advice, objective and within the letter and spirit of the law. Don't give false or misleading advice.

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Rmet, she and her ex are 100% on the same page regarding grandma and visitation rights (refer back to her original post)....therefore anything that she chooses to do is obviously going to involve dad in the decision making process. In fact, we don't even know if dad lives close by...that information was not present.

If dad agrees to her moving with the children...then she would not be "fleeing"....and based on experience...dad will probably agree. There is also nothing wrong with establishing residency in FL and then asking FL to take jurisdiction and vacate the orders. We have an OP who is clearly attempting to break a cycle of dysfunction. She did not "choose" her parents or choose to make a baby with her parents...however she is choosing not to allow grandma's dysfunction to spill over onto her children. That is her right as a parent....the United States Supreme Court SAID so.

Rmet, I am going to be utterly honest here. I had no intention of taking this OP "off the board". I didn't feel that she needed much further help....because I honestly doubt that the judge is going to give grandma much, if anything more than grandma's already got....and since that won't give grandma the control she wants....grandma is likely to fade away. I decided to take her "off the board" because of what I considered to be a very "mean-spirited" post to her on your part. I am sorry, but when I see you make those kinds of posts, over and over again, where you basically tell the OP that they are crud...and draw conclusions based on items not in evidence, I think its "mean-spirited".

GPV is complicated....and yes, when I see someone with a situation that needs ongoing help I DO give them the option of communicating with people who truly know the law and how to defend themselves and protect their children ....LEGALLY. Attorneys participate in our group so it not just laypeople. Unfortunately, there are still many judge's out there that ignore Troxel...and feel that they need to give grandparent's "something"...There are also evaluators out there (like you...sorry but true) who refuse to see any difference between parent vs parent cases and parent vs third party cases when making recommendations.

You don't like the advice that I give some of the posters. You don't like it because you do not believe that a parent has the right to "resist" a court order...even if that order isn't valid under the law....or even if that order isn't valid for the kids. Well....Troxel never would have gone to the USSC if Tammie Granville hadn't decided to "resist"....if you think she obeyed that original court order during the years it took to get the case to the USSC, you would be wrong....if you think she was found in contempt by the trial court judge, you would be correct....if you think that contempt caused her any problems, you would be wrong.

I don't give the same advice for a parent vs parent case as I do for a parent vs third party....because the same advice is NOT VALID. In a parent vs parent case you have two people with equal constitutional rights....in a parent vs third party case you have one with constitutional rights...and the other without. When we get to the point where all judges, in all states, adhere to the principals of Troxel....then it may be time to tell parents that they MUST obey the court orders, without fail. However we are not there yet...and evaluators, GALs and even attorneys who refuse to see the difference are part of the problem.

So yeah...when I see a "mean-spirited" post I am going to try to take someone "off the board". If I see someone being intimidated into obeying a court order that they don't LEGALLY have to obey...I am also going to try take them off the board.

And...to remind you before you mention it again...sigh....my mother is my best friend. It was my paternal grandmother who was a problem....and it did not involve gpv because it was 40 years ago....and because my dad kept her "in line"...and my grandfather did that before he died.

Yes...I have an "agenda" on this topic of family law. My agenda is to help parents understand their rights under the constitution...and to fight for those rights when dealing with dysfunctional grandparents. I also have another agenda, and that is to make good grandparents realize that "taking it to court"...just guarantees the destruction of the extended family relationships.