Please help

Have put near $2500 into car in 6 months! However, I have reason to believe fraud!

What is the name of your state? Missouri

Okay, so I bought a '96 Monte Carlo in March (2005) for $3700 from a small dealership. It had 130K miles. I bought it AS-IS. When driving off the lot, I went to a carwash, and the car died and couln't be started. I went up to the dealer the next day (after towing my car), and I was told the battery died. They replaced the battery for free, as the dealer knows my Grandpa. So, I was on my way. A few weeks later, the car died again. It had been over a month since buying the car, and I learned the alternator went out. Obviously, I was suspicious that I was told earlier my "battery died." Anyhoo, after another tow, and prying the entire engine out to get to the alternator because of it's stupid location, I ended up spending about $500+. A few weeks later, my brakes went from a very light squel to a full on grind. I went to Meinike to replace my rear brakes, $212. I ended up doing the front myself, $85 in parts. Then a few weeks ago, my transmission went out, which cost nearly $1800. I figured I got a lemon, and I was screwed.

Well, the other day when cleaning my car, I realized there were two stickers covering two warning lights by the Odometer/speedometer/RPMs, etc. It's obvious they were put there to conceal something (the tape is well cut, and is the same color as the dash). So, I check my manual, and sure enough, the stickers are covering the "Anti-Lock" and "Service Engine Soon" Lights. I think both could be respectively warning about what has gone wrong with my car since purchased. This was never disclosed to me when I made the purchase, and it's possible the lights could of been on the entire time I was test-driving. (Which, is probably the exact reason why they were covered). To me, this would be just as fradulent as messing with the odometer. Does anyone think I have a case I should bring to court?

Oh, and by the way, I had the car inspected by a mechanic that works closely with the dealer before purchasing the car. Probably not the wisest decision, but I figured since I'm getting it inspected for the state, he has to follow rules. And I feel he should of noticed something like this.

problems with monte carlo

Sorry to hear you're having problems.

Just for the record, used vehicles with 130k mile do not qualify for lemonhood, only new vehicles.

Disc brake pads are designed to "squeal" to let the owner know that they need to be replaced. Continuing to drive well after the squeal ends without replacing the pads means that the rivets on the pads are now grinding into the rotors. Sounds like you got it handled before that.

The "antilock" light on your dash is a diagnostic function that occurs every time you start your car. It should light up when you start the car, then go out. If it stays lit, there is a problem with the a-l system The problem can be as simple as a low brake fluid level to an electronic issue. I would emphasize that this DOES NOT MEAN that your brakes are malfunctioning, only that there is an issue with the anti-lock system. Normal braking will not be affected at all

The "check engine soon light" sounds like a simple reminder based on how many miles you've driven since a chevy mechanic reset it. (I have something similar on my 94 Accord). See your manual for details.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the previous owner did not service it as much as he could've. Be aware that a car like this is kind of like an older person, ie asking it to run 100 yard dashes is much more likely to lead to vapor lock or worse. In other words, take it a little easy, and you'll do much better.

cjbrown929 said:

Sorry to hear you're having problems.

Just for the record, used vehicles with 130k mile do not qualify for lemonhood, only new vehicles.

Disc brake pads are designed to "squeal" to let the owner know that they need to be replaced. Continuing to drive well after the squeal ends without replacing the pads means that the rivets on the pads are now grinding into the rotors. Sounds like you got it handled before that.

The "antilock" light on your dash is a diagnostic function that occurs every time you start your car. It should light up when you start the car, then go out. If it stays lit, there is a problem with the a-l system The problem can be as simple as a low brake fluid level to an electronic issue. I would emphasize that this DOES NOT MEAN that your brakes are malfunctioning, only that there is an issue with the anti-lock system. Normal braking will not be affected at all

The "check engine soon light" sounds like a simple reminder based on how many miles you've driven since a chevy mechanic reset it. (I have something similar on my 94 Accord). See your manual for details.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the previous owner did not service it as much as he could've. Be aware that a car like this is kind of like an older person, ie asking it to run 100 yard dashes is much more likely to lead to vapor lock or worse. In other words, take it a little easy, and you'll do much better.

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Thanks for the reply. However, the point I was trying to make is that the lights were purposefully covered up with tape. It is very likely the dealer did the diagnostics when the light was one, realized there was a (big) problem, covered up the light, and never mentioned it. I understand in a regular situation there may not of been a problem, but the fact the lights were covered makes me suspicious. If the dealer told me there were no problems, even though they covered the lights, they should of disclosed this with me...
if not, I suspect a cover up/fraud.

fraud

I see your point. it DOES seem suspicious, like, WHY cover these "idiot" lights (as they are called). With the "service engine soon" light, it may have just been annoying to have it on all the time (these are often set to go off after the car has traveled about 3,000 miles, and have to be reset by a chevy mechanic even if you had the car serviced elsewhere. Tricky, huh?). The antilock light means that the a-l system is malfunctioning.

An a-l system is designed to pump your brakes up to 16 times a second when a wheel sensor detects a "locked up" wheel or wheels, like when you slam on the brakes. When a wheel (especially the fron ones) locks up, like on a rain slick street, your steering control completely diappears; by intermittently applying and releasing the brakes some measure of control is established. The a-l system only becomes active in the event of wheel lock up. Check your brake fluid level. If its low, the light can come on. If its a wheel sensor gone bad, it could be quite expensive (and unnecessary) to repair.

If the "service engine" light was on because it was throwing a code for the emissions system, and the dealer (or former owner for that matter) concealed it they are in BIG trouble. Did you have a diagnostic run, or at least have the codes read at Autozone/Pep Boys/Checker?

You paid waaaaay too much for your "outsourced" work, but that doesn't mean the dealer sold the car with those known defects. Alternators don't give much warning unless they are whining, and a battery can die at any time...especially if the car has been sitting at a carlot for awhile. The combination of the two would lead me to immediately check the battery cables for internal corrosion, and then have the codes read to see what else was interrupted. Bad grounds can also cause numerous problems with the electronics. Also check your main wiring harness connections for corrosion (especially if they are below the battery tray).

Do you have a case for returning the car? Yes, but you probably won't get full reimbursement for anything not related to the idiot light concealment. IE, if the car was ordered returned to the dealer he would have to compensate you for some percentage of the work you had done to make the car better (and, argueably would have been necessary anyway).

dallas702 said:

If the "service engine" light was on because it was throwing a code for the emissions system, and the dealer (or former owner for that matter) concealed it they are in BIG trouble. Did you have a diagnostic run, or at least have the codes read at Autozone/Pep Boys/Checker?

You paid waaaaay too much for your "outsourced" work, but that doesn't mean the dealer sold the car with those known defects. Alternators don't give much warning unless they are whining, and a battery can die at any time...especially if the car has been sitting at a carlot for awhile. The combination of the two would lead me to immediately check the battery cables for internal corrosion, and then have the codes read to see what else was interrupted. Bad grounds can also cause numerous problems with the electronics. Also check your main wiring harness connections for corrosion (especially if they are below the battery tray).

Do you have a case for returning the car? Yes, but you probably won't get full reimbursement for anything not related to the idiot light concealment. IE, if the car was ordered returned to the dealer he would have to compensate you for some percentage of the work you had done to make the car better (and, argueably would have been necessary anyway).

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Thanks for the reply. First, I'd like to point out that I believe they knew the alternator was going bad, and so when my car died and they put in a new battery, they were actually just "band-aiding" the problem, so the car would run fine for a few weeks, and they could be out worry free. I don't believe anything is wrong with the electronics system, I just feel they tried to hide the bad alternator problem by saying it was the battery.

Secondly, could I get just the diagnostics done for free somewhere, as I'm very short on cash? If they were hiding emssion problems, what kind of problems could the dealer be facing?

Lastly, if I were to have the dealer buy back the car, what kind of percent of the work done do you think they would cover?

Again, thinks for helping, and I appreciate the interest in my questions.


EDIT: About paying way too much for outsourced work, what do you mean? If the prices seem high, I agree. Although I must throw out there that my car seems to be built by 5th graders. The alternator on my car isnt located on the top...or the bottom...but between my axels and engine. Labor was like $300 and I had no choice because they had to lift the car and remove a lot of the engine components. The brakes were high, and I just think I got ripped off (Especially now, b/c yesterday my brake caliper froze, and Meinike, where I got my first brake job, quoted me $514 for one caliper, but I went to firestone and got both rear calipers done for $315). And the transmission was like $1780, and I knew trannys were expensive. BTW, I have an automatic . Where do you think I got the most screwed? I'm not arguing, B/C I know very little about cars, but I am curious...

Very quickly: you probably can't get a full diagnostic for free, but most of the aftermarket parts sellers like Checker will do a free reading of the codes from the computer. That will tell you why those lights are on and what else may be malfunctioning.

You must have the 3.4 litre V6 with the alternator down below. Even though the others with the alt. up at the rear is almost as bad, I must admit the engineers who did that should be horsewhipped. Yeah, that's an expensive, pain in the neck replacement.

The fines for concealing smog system problems are very high...starting at $10,000 I believe. Dealers are held to strict standards about emissions.

Trannies are always expensive, so you did ok there. I guess $315 for both calipers is not too bad, but if you can do pads you can do calipers, too (although, the R&R of the E-brake can be a pain). Did that $315 include the pads?

If you were to return the car through a judges order you would probably get back what you paid for the repairs, but that "as is" clause is mighty strong in court. The tape over the idiot lights could very well be your savior, though. You're about $6500 into the car now, and who knows what's coming next. I would pay the (approx.) $65 for the diagnostic just to see if the BCM/PCM reading would show higher mileage. If it did, the dealer would be begging you to take the car back at full reimbursement.

Oh...the shop that did the alternator might do it for you since you gave them such a nice piece of business.

dallas702 said:

Very quickly: you probably can't get a full diagnostic for free, but most of the aftermarket parts sellers like Checker will do a free reading of the codes from the computer. That will tell you why those lights are on and what else may be malfunctioning.

You must have the 3.4 litre V6 with the alternator down below. Even though the others with the alt. up at the rear is almost as bad, I must admit the engineers who did that should be horsewhipped. Yeah, that's an expensive, pain in the neck replacement.

The fines for concealing smog system problems are very high...starting at $10,000 I believe. Dealers are held to strict standards about emissions.

Trannies are always expensive, so you did ok there. I guess $315 for both calipers is not too bad, but if you can do pads you can do calipers, too (although, the R&R of the E-brake can be a pain). Did that $315 include the pads?

If you were to return the car through a judges order you would probably get back what you paid for the repairs, but that "as is" clause is mighty strong in court. The tape over the idiot lights could very well be your savior, though. You're about $6500 into the car now, and who knows what's coming next. I would pay the (approx.) $65 for the diagnostic just to see if the BCM/PCM reading would show higher mileage. If it did, the dealer would be begging you to take the car back at full reimbursement.

Oh...the shop that did the alternator might do it for you since you gave them such a nice piece of business.

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Thanks for all the details, I greatly appreciate it. I'm new to these forums, so if there is anyway I can give you "good feedback" or something, I'd love to; just tell me how.

Anyhoo, the $315 did include the pads. But $315 is A LOT of money for me, and I've got zero cash. (I'm only 16 and work my butt off at Burger King while keeping a near 4.0GPA. I had to pay for the car myself, and I pay for all the repairs, so I'm broke). So, after my next couple paychecks, I think I'll bring it in and have the $65 BCM/PCM thing done. Which, by the way, what is that, and how would it show more mileage?

And then, if the diagnostics do show something critical, I'll go further into this, hopefully getting full reimburstment of the car and repairs. If not, then I guess that's just how its supposed to be.

Also, if something critical is found, do you think I could bypass a lawyer, and go straight to the dealer, or is that not a wise move?

And in the case of the alternator people doing the diagnostics: They work rather closely with the dealer (and they were the ones who did my original inspection, anyways, lol), so I'd feel rather uncomfortable going there.

Again, thanks for helping.

Though it may vary some by mfgr. or date, BCM = body control module, and PCM = powertrain control module. Right now I can't remember which keeps the mileage, but it's one of them.