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Classic Car sold from Internet Message board

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Mikeinli

Junior Member
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? NY

I sold a classic car (1970) to an invidiual living in North Carolina.
Deal done via emails and phone calls

Gave a description of the car to the best of my abilities including areas i knew of with rust (wheel lips etc)

Took a deposit and agreed if he didn't want to purchase the car i'd keep 250 of the 5k deposit

He originally was going to come inspect the car.

Buyer a classic car financing company come inspect the car wich made a cursory inspection including pictures that went to the seller

Seller remits payment in full which includes the loan companies checks and a bank check, following an email that states payment in full would complete the sale.

Few days after an autotransporter hired by the buyer picks up the car.

two days later get a series of emails explaining his displeasure that he will have to do more to restore the car than he would like, all of wich would be a matter of opinion not fact, for all i know he is going to try to do a roteserie restoration.

for all I know the car fell off the transporter and the guy doesn't want to deal with it.

His emails explain that he is offering a one time offer to give me 500 and return the car, or he will be contacting his attorney. (I don't liek the ultimatum)

This transaction took 2 months to complete where I waived off other buyers in the meantime,

From what I have read I have no obligation to take the car back... The car is good, I know it is.

From all the posts here I am in good shape, I want to send him a note telling him I am under no obligation, that I would speak to him if he backs off and thinks of a more reasonable counter offer.

Mike
 
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dallas702

Senior Member
He did everything reasonable to make his deal "safe". You did everything reasonable to inform and accomodate him. If he doesn't like the condition of the car he needs to complain to the PROFESSIONAL agency who inspected it, then look in a mirror.

You did your best from what it sounds. He has no case aganst you. Send him a polite email stating that you are sorry he doesn't like the car, but you made a binding deal. he is free to sell it to someone else if he doesn't want to do the work.

What did he think it was going to take to put the car in the condition he wants? What level of restoration is he looking for? What is his SPECIFIC complaint?

What was the car (and price if I may ask)?
 
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Mikeinli

Junior Member
classis car blues

Car is a 1970 Torino Cobra (Super Cobra Jet) J code (highest) 429 4spd hurst big input toploader, 31 spline axels detriot locker rear end (all original equipment) known as the drag pak.

Sold the car for 23k, if the car was a #1 car I would be asking 35-40k as one on ebay and one at barret jackson recently sold.

I wanted 28k but negotiated downwarn.

I have pictures on a perosnal website http://fairlanetorino.com there were 30 or so pics and his surveyer took thier own.

THis is troubling because I wanted this fellow to enjoy the car if it wern't for my first child being 4 weeks away (NOV 22nd) I would want to keep the car.
 

Mikeinli

Junior Member
specifics

as for specific complaints, he says his detailer told him he would have to cut out the quarter panels (there is a little rust just starting on the wheel lips) I would never cut a whole quarter for that..

says that there is rust on the trunk pan ( i never pulled out the trunk carpets or disasembled the car

says the engine is blowing oil , i had the engine built at a reputable race/restoration shop in 2001 and had only a few thousand miles on it, I have no knowlage of any engine trouble. This sounded like eggageration to me

Said the car smells and the rear carpet in trunk was wet, I normally klept it in a garage, the car was in 8 days straight of rain while awaiting for pickup *he canceled the first week* DId it get wet? I don't know maybe

thanks for the help

Mike
 
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dallas702

Senior Member
First, there is always a lot of subjectivity when describing the condition of "restored" classic cars. There are so many levels of restoration (contrary the the 1-5 condition ratings that are so popular) that it is clearly a case of perception by individuals. When I bought a 1967 GTO several years ago, since it had undergone a 3 year (off-the-frame, complete restoration), I expected nothing less than a show quality #1 car. It was close, but I could see that the painter had done a mediocre job of color sanding the paint before applying the clear and finishing it. The car was almost perfect, but every time I looked at that otherwise stunning Mariner Turquoise (white v.top and interior) I could see the slight rippling in the angled light. I sold the car at a profit so I couldn't really say I was damaged, but I was disappointed enough to contact the painter and ask him what happened.

Anyway, your buyer did have a professional inspection. It was up to him and the inspector to verify the condition and/or find any discrepancies. You informed him of the rust on the wheel lips. It is up to him to find out what that might cost for repairs before he buys the car. The rust under the trunk mat should have been found by the inspector.

Your car with the options it had was well worth $23K...even with the flaws. So what if it costs him $1000 to fix the rust. That's chicken feed. I'm sure the engine is just fine, unless his first move was to se how many layers of rubber he could build up on the asphalt in front of his house. Those were good engines, but not after several runs over redline. Then they smoke. Carpet is $1-200 and a few hours to R&R. Big deal. They are still $thousands ahead.

Unless they can show that you concealed things that even the inspector couldn't find they don't have a case. Even then, their chances of getting a dime in court (considering the overall value of the car) is slim to none.

Go on to your next project.
 
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Mikeinli

Junior Member
this is the note i got today...

Below is the note I recieved tonight I have yet to reply to his previous notes as I did check with consel who had simialr advise as this forum, at what point is there a vield (or even outright threat, or harassment). Also can you cancel a bankcheck after it has cleared? I posted photos of the car that is the car it sounds like he is disassembling it and seeign things I would have had no way to have ever seen.

***********************************************
Mike, we spent yesterday looking at the holes and daylight you can see through the back fender wells looking down through the trunk. The front drivers floor pan has a damn license plate screwed to the floor pan under the underlayment. The back trunk was soaking wet.

I'm going to tell you something and you better take me seriously, I am going to call the bank monday morning and tell them to stop payment whether it has been cashed or not, and if it has I will get them to help with pressing charges on false advertisement and fraud. I will call the FBI for interstate fraud and whoever else I need to until this matter is put to bed, quicklike. I will hire an attorney in NY and spend every dime I've got in that car until you return that money I sent you minus what I offered in my last email. Do not think I am kidding or making idle threats.You have stepped somewhere you do not want to go, and I am relentless. I will not let you get away with what you have done. I will go to your business, I will go to the ends of the earth to do what it takes for you to make good on what you have taken from me under false pretenses. You don't want what I am willing to do. I expect to hear from you by monday. No later,and it would be better if you did something before then, you know my cell number 803-xxx-xxxx, call it and call it soon.
I'll be coming Mike, and you don't want that. Believe me, you don't know who your dealing with.
 

dallas702

Senior Member
He is obviously upset, but from what you have told us you identified what defects you knew. His only way to challenge your honesty in describing the car is if you made any claims (in writing, since recorded phone conversations wouldn't be admissable) that none of these specific defects existed. Even then, he has to over come the burden of the professional appraiser. He should read his contract with them. If he has no guarantee from them, he has no claim on anyone.

He must file suit in your state, and your jurisdiction. You can check your state laws regarding private sales of automobiles, and see what the responsibilites of buyer and seller are. Usually, private sellers are not held to a very high standard of knowledge.

How did he hear of the car? Did you use Autotrader, or another online advertiser? Ebay? Do you have your original ad, or all your emails that show specific language?

He cannot stop payment on a check that has cleared. The bank is not going to be a party to this dispute. If he does he is subject to both civil and criminal action. He has made a threat to you personally by saying he will go to your business (unless selling cars is your business). That is criminal.

He is still talking about approx. $1000 worth of metal work on a car he got for a resonable price...which might appreciate to double its value with a proper restoration. He has not been injured. He will not prevail in court unless you switched VIN, swapped the engine, or altered the body/trim plate (and didn't reveal it). Show quality paint without body work is $3-5,000. Another $1K isn't even worth fighting over. Even IF the engine was misrepresented it was still up to his appraiser to identify that. Even IF he needs a $1500 rebuild he still has a potentially more valuable car than what he paid for.

The FBI will laugh at him...except when they find out he threatened you. Review your documents and statements. Tell him again (politely) that you are sorry he is disappointed, but you have done nothing wrong; he (and his appraiser) had the responsibility to inspect and identify problems before the purchase; and that if he continues to make criminal threats you will take action.

He does have the right to take you to court. Of course, if he did win he would have to return the car to you in the same condition as it was when you sold it. That can't happen because the engine wasn't smoking when you sold it to him. It doesn't matter if he is the Pope, he still has to obey the law. His threats have already placed HIM in jeapardy.

BTW: the NADA guide shows your Torino's value to be from approx. $19,000 to over $70,000. The guy got a very valuable car at a very fair price and needs to stop complaining.
 
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Mikeinli

Junior Member
The Original Ad.

1970 Torino Cobra SJC (Super Cobra Jet) J Code, 4spd Drag Pak (big input toploader) Hurst Shifter, Detroit Locker 3.91:1 gears, Staggard Shocks, Traction Bars. Original Intacke, carb and shaker base in trunk, 75,000 miles, older paint job but overall solid, no bondo/filler , Has chin spoiler and original window slats. Factor Shaker car, working ribbon tach disconnected as MSD didn’t have the adapotor box when I did the car. Interior is in solid shape save wear on drivers seat and the 70-71 torino cracked dash that the all seem to have. Motor was done by Lizzard Racing in 2001 with the original SJC heads and solid lifter cam (new cam). Car is quite fast, selling it as I have a new house and expecting my first child in November… Asking 26,500 negitioable, if cash is in hand....

The following pictures of the car were attached

http://fairlanetorino.com/cobra/images/IMG_0123.jpg
http://fairlanetorino.com/cobra/images/IMG_0123.jpg
Please find her a good new home… [email protected] http://fairlanetorino.com/cobra/images/Dcp00041.jpg
http://fairlanetorino.com/cobra/images/Dcp00041.jpghttp://fairlanetorino.com/cobra/images/IMG_0221.jpg
http://fairlanetorino.com/cobra/images/IMG_0221.jpghttp://fairlanetorino.com/cobra/images/cobra 6 28 2001 at l,izzard.jpg
http://fairlanetorino.com/cobra/images/cobra 6 28 2001 at l,izzard.jpg
 

Mikeinli

Junior Member
correspondences prior to sale

That looks fair enough to me Mike...I would like to add one thing. I plan on being there to pick the car up within two weeks. If there are no surprises, and I don't anticipate any...would you be willing to refund the deposit, less, say $250.00 for your trouble. What I am mainly concerned about is excessive rusting in the floor pans or rear fender wells. If what you have previously described is accurate, then we will have no problem. It will be an expensive trip for me, just to turn around, but on the other hand I have to expect you to keep something for the trouble. I am counting on there not being any issues, it the car is even close to the pictures on the web site.

Regards,

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael G. Curry [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 3:37 PM
To: David Riley
Subject: 1970 Torino Cobra


As per our Discussions

We are in agreement to the sale of the said 1970 Torino Cobra (vin code:
0a38J238264) as pictured on both Torinocobra.com and fairlanetorino.com
for the price of $ 23,000.00 USD. We further agree that the deal will
commence up the seller receiving a 25% deposit, and close upon the
complete payment of the agreed upon sum of $ 23,000.00. The Seller
Agrees to keep the said car in storage for a period not to exceed 3
months so that the buyer may arrange transportation of the vehicle to
the location of his choosing.



Michael
 

Mikeinli

Junior Member
messages prior to sale

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:28 AM
To: David
Subject: RE: Torino


I left you a voice mail a while ago...so you can ignore it when you get
it..if you have a moment, I'd like to ask you a few things and maybe we
can
work together..

I can't see the back, is it a GT or a true cobra.

Cobra 038aj

Does it have the rear window louvers?

Yes

Give me the real deal on any rust issues, anywhere.

Starting on rear wheel lip not bad though

Any dents? no dents paint cips in a spot or two with minor surface rust

Center console with the 4 speed? No console was always on the hunt for a
good one

Anything I need to know that I might have to deal with, anything. I just
want to know up front. Excellent mechanical just had the front sway bar
bushings done

Is the tranny in good shape? Brand new rebuild big input close ratio
toploader (original to the car)

Factory Air?
Drag pak and A/c could not come together except on the twister special
as I believe

Thanks,


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:49 AM
To: David
Subject: RE: Torino

Yes its located near nyc


-----Original Message-----
From: David
Sent: Wed Sep 21 10:34:58 2005
To: Michael
Subject: Torino

Mike, still have that Torino?



DR
 

Mikeinli

Junior Member
remainder of the written corespondences

No problem, you should be getting contact from a company that will arrange a short appoint. w/ you to inspect the car. I'm going to use a little of their money for a month or two...

Things aren't too bad, and hope not for you.

See you soon.



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:08 PM
To: David
Subject: RE: 1970 Torino Cobra

Received the bank check, it is an out of state bank, so it will still take a day or two to clear since the bank doesn't have an instate presence or so they tell me...

Hope all is well.


Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: David
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 1:25 PM
To: Michael
Subject: RE: 1970 Torino Cobra

79253xxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 PM
To: David
Subject: RE: 1970 Torino Cobra

Sounds great, if you can send the tracking # I will look out for its arrival




Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: David
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:54 AM
To: Michael
Subject: RE: 1970 Torino Cobra

Mike,
Fed-x going out today, should arrive in one or two days..

Let me know when you get it.

Regards,


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:04 PM
To: David
Subject: RE: 1970 Torino Cobra

Agreed, and I don't expect you'll have an issues

-----Original Message-----
From: David
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:01 PM
To: Michael
Subject: RE: 1970 Torino Cobra

That looks fair enough to me Mike...I would like to add one thing. I plan on being there to pick the car up within two weeks. If there are no surprises, and I don't anticipate any...would you be willing to refund the deposit, less, say $250.00 for your trouble. What I am mainly concerned about is excessive rusting in the floor pans or rear fender wells. If what you have previously described is accurate, then we will have no problem. It will be an expensive trip for me, just to turn around, but on the other hand I have to expect you to keep something for the trouble. I am counting on there not being any issues, it the car is even close to the pictures on the web site.

Regards,

David
 

Mikeinli

Junior Member
Harrassment has begun...

He has now called the owner of the company I work for and pleaded his case with him (no privity whatsoever), which I have not spoken to my boss, but my guess is that defamation is involved.
 

dallas702

Senior Member
Bad move on his part...obviously way out of bounds.

It sounds as though the rust is worse than you described, but your level of expertise would be a factor, and the inspection by the lender should diminish your responsibility even more.

Tell him (politely) to take you to court if he thinks he has a case. Also tell him you are not going to keep bantering with him, and will not accept or answer any more correspondence.

I think the problem both of you is having is so common that a judge will have to rely on the buyer's and appraiser's responsibility. About 20 years ago I bought a '65 Impala SS convertible that needed a total restoration. The body was excellent with nothing but a little surface oxidation, and all th ebare metal parts looked solid and rust free. My body/paint man lost his shop and I couldn't afford to keep all my projects in storage so I sold it to a couple of guys from MI. One of the first things they did was pull up the carpet in the front floor and trunk. Sure enough, the carpet was damp and there were small holes. I hadn't even thought to look because of the condition of the rest of the metal. So they made me a lowball offer and I took it. I learned a valuable lesson and they got a pretty good car for a steal. Had they gotten back to MI and then looked under the carpet do you think I would have reimbursed their money? No way.
 
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Mikeinli

Junior Member
My reply and hopefully the end of this

First I’d like to say I am disappointed you were not happy with the car.
Your notes since Thursday have been in increasingly threatening in tone have forced me seek counsel. You’re various threats and harassment, such as contacting the owner of the company I work for who had no privity to our deal is considered aggravated harassment. Cease and Desist these threats and/or actions as they are illegal and documented by you to me. Any further communications from you to me on this matter should be through your counsel. I have consulted with the Nassau County PD, and the Tega Cay PD (who is referring this to York County Sheriff). As Per their recommendations this note is put you on notice that any further contact, threats or harassment would be acted upon.

Michael
 

dallas702

Senior Member
I'll bet he responds just to get the last shot in. I'm sure any lawyer who isn't just trying to milk him will tell him he really doesn't have much of a case.
 
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