Is It Criminal or Civil?

BlondiePB · Nov 22, 2005

What is the name of your state? FL

Someone has been tampering with the circuit breakers on the outside of my building for my electricity. I asked the Pres. of Condo Asso. last night who turned off my electricity outside. He said that he did. Then, he said the power company did after remembering that I told him that no one could do that other than the person paying the electric bill. The only other persons that could do this would be a city or fire inspector.

I called the power company a short while later. There was no work order to shut of the breakers, etc. to my unit. This morning, my nephew and I went to put a lock on the breaker box and discovered that the electricity had been turned back on. I asked the Pres. of the Assoc. if he turned my breaker box on. He said no. He also admitted to turning it off right in front of the fire inspector. Is this a criminal or civil matter?

seniorjudge · Nov 22, 2005

Q: Is this a criminal or civil matter?

A: Both. It is at least trespass (which can be civil, criminal, or both). Also, without doing any further research, there could be Florida criminal statutes dealing with tampering. Talk to your local prosecutor. Better yet, call the cops and raise a big stink.

BlondiePB · Nov 22, 2005

seniorjudge said:
Q: Is this a criminal or civil matter?

A: Both. It is at least trespass (which can be civil, criminal, or both). Also, without doing any further research, there could be Florida criminal statutes dealing with tampering. Talk to your local prosecutor. Better yet, call the cops and raise a big stink.

I went to the police department and filed a report earlier this afternoon and did raise a big stink. The officer told me that it was a civil matter. This seems to be conflicting with information that was provide to me by the power company.

Added to that complaint was threats of physical harm by another person. There are people residing in my building with water coming out of electric fixtures and through the walls. I have raised a big stink with the Pres. of Condo Asso. No one else but me thinks this is a fire hazard, including the Board of Directors. These idiots are endangering my property (and lives).

Last week, I began calling calling city inspectors for my unit only. Electric inspector came the same day. He called building inspector who came last Thursday. I was asked at the owner's meeting last night by the Board and other owners to stop calling the inspectors because it will slow down the work. I told them all that I had the right to do so. You don't even want to know what else these idiots think.

Pres. of Condo Asso. did not even inform everyone last night about what the building inspector said about the black mold and what has to be done about itand treating all units at the same time. Owners think that they can do this at their convenience for their unit only.

CdwJava · Dec 10, 2005

812.14 Trespass and larceny with relation to utility fixtures.--

(1) As used in this section, "utility" includes any person, firm, corporation, association, or political subdivision, whether private, municipal, county, or cooperative, which is engaged in the sale, generation, provision, or delivery of gas, electricity, heat, water, oil, sewer service, telephone service, telegraph service, radio service, or telecommunication service.

(2) It is unlawful to:

(a) Willfully alter, tamper with, injure, or knowingly suffer to be injured any meter, meter seal, pipe, conduit, wire, line, cable, transformer, amplifier, or other apparatus or device belonging to a utility line service in such a manner as to cause loss or damage or to prevent any meter installed for registering electricity, gas, or water from registering the quantity which otherwise would pass through the same; or to alter the index or break the seal of any such meter; or in any way to hinder or interfere with the proper action or just registration of any such meter or device; or knowingly to use, waste, or suffer the waste, by any means, of electricity or gas or water passing through any such meter, wire, pipe, or fitting, or other appliance or appurtenance connected with or belonging to any such utility, after such meter, wire, pipe or fitting, or other appliance or appurtenance has been tampered with, injured, or altered.

(b) Make or cause to be made any connection with any wire, main, service pipe or other pipes, appliance, or appurtenance in such manner as to use, without the consent of the utility, any service or any electricity, gas, or water, or to cause to be supplied any service or electricity, gas, or water from a utility to any person, firm, or corporation or any lamp, burner, orifice, faucet, or other outlet whatsoever, without such service being reported for payment or such electricity, gas, or water passing through a meter provided by the utility and used for measuring and registering the quantity of electricity, gas, or water passing through the same.

(c) Use or receive the direct benefit from the use of a utility knowing, or under such circumstances as would induce a reasonable person to believe, that such direct benefits have resulted from any tampering with, altering of, or injury to any connection, wire, conductor, meter, pipe, conduit, line, cable, transformer, amplifier, or other apparatus or device owned, operated, or controlled by such utility, for the purpose of avoiding payment.

(3) The presence on property in the actual possession of a person of any device or alteration which affects the diversion or use of the services of a utility so as to avoid the registration of such use by or on a meter installed by the utility or so as to otherwise avoid the reporting of use of such service for payment shall be prima facie evidence of the violation of this section by such person; however, this presumption shall not apply unless:

(a) The presence of such a device or alteration can be attributed only to a deliberate act in furtherance of an intent to avoid payment for utility services;

(b) The person charged has received the direct benefit of the reduction of the cost of such utility services; and

(c) The customer or recipient of the utility services has received the direct benefit of such utility service for at least one full billing cycle.

(4) Any person who willfully violates this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(5) Whoever is found in a civil action to have violated the provisions hereof shall be liable to the utility involved in an amount equal to 3 times the amount of services unlawfully obtained or $1,000, whichever is greater.

(6) Nothing in this act shall be construed to apply to licensed and certified electrical contractors while performing usual and ordinary service in accordance with recognized standards.

- Carl

rmet4nzkx · Dec 10, 2005

Thank You Carl, I knew if anyone could find the statute, you could

Blondie, You have a good witness to the HOA Prez admitting to "tampering" in the inspector, now you have something to go to the police with. Hopefully the next inspection will show the water problem after the rain.

BlondiePB · Dec 16, 2005

CdwJava said:
812.14 Trespass and larceny with relation to utility fixtures.--

(1) As used in this section, "utility" includes any person, firm, corporation, association, or political subdivision, whether private, municipal, county, or cooperative, which is engaged in the sale, generation, provision, or delivery of gas, electricity, heat, water, oil, sewer service, telephone service, telegraph service, radio service, or telecommunication service.

(2) It is unlawful to:

(a) Willfully alter, tamper with, injure, or knowingly suffer to be injured any meter, meter seal, pipe, conduit, wire, line, cable, transformer, amplifier, or other apparatus or device belonging to a utility line service in such a manner as to cause loss or damage or to prevent any meter installed for registering electricity, gas, or water from registering the quantity which otherwise would pass through the same; or to alter the index or break the seal of any such meter; or in any way to hinder or interfere with the proper action or just registration of any such meter or device; or knowingly to use, waste, or suffer the waste, by any means, of electricity or gas or water passing through any such meter, wire, pipe, or fitting, or other appliance or appurtenance connected with or belonging to any such utility, after such meter, wire, pipe or fitting, or other appliance or appurtenance has been tampered with, injured, or altered.

(b) Make or cause to be made any connection with any wire, main, service pipe or other pipes, appliance, or appurtenance in such manner as to use, without the consent of the utility, any service or any electricity, gas, or water, or to cause to be supplied any service or electricity, gas, or water from a utility to any person, firm, or corporation or any lamp, burner, orifice, faucet, or other outlet whatsoever, without such service being reported for payment or such electricity, gas, or water passing through a meter provided by the utility and used for measuring and registering the quantity of electricity, gas, or water passing through the same.

(c) Use or receive the direct benefit from the use of a utility knowing, or under such circumstances as would induce a reasonable person to believe, that such direct benefits have resulted from any tampering with, altering of, or injury to any connection, wire, conductor, meter, pipe, conduit, line, cable, transformer, amplifier, or other apparatus or device owned, operated, or controlled by such utility, for the purpose of avoiding payment.

(3) The presence on property in the actual possession of a person of any device or alteration which affects the diversion or use of the services of a utility so as to avoid the registration of such use by or on a meter installed by the utility or so as to otherwise avoid the reporting of use of such service for payment shall be prima facie evidence of the violation of this section by such person; however, this presumption shall not apply unless:

(a) The presence of such a device or alteration can be attributed only to a deliberate act in furtherance of an intent to avoid payment for utility services;

(b) The person charged has received the direct benefit of the reduction of the cost of such utility services; and

(c) The customer or recipient of the utility services has received the direct benefit of such utility service for at least one full billing cycle.

(4) Any person who willfully violates this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(5) Whoever is found in a civil action to have violated the provisions hereof shall be liable to the utility involved in an amount equal to 3 times the amount of services unlawfully obtained or $1,000, whichever is greater.

(6) Nothing in this act shall be construed to apply to licensed and certified electrical contractors while performing usual and ordinary service in accordance with recognized standards.

- Carl

Thank you soooo very much, Carl. This is exactly what I need.

BlondiePB · Dec 16, 2005

rmet4nzkx said:
Thank You Carl, I knew if anyone could find the statute, you could

Blondie, You have a good witness to the HOA Prez admitting to "tampering" in the inspector, now you have something to go to the police with. Hopefully the next inspection will show the water problem after the rain.

Sure do have an excellent witness there, Doc. Timing of this is important. We didn't have the rain that was expected. At least my property hasn't gone up in flames, yet. FEMA even knows about what is going on at my community and has called the Governor's Advocate for Owners & Tenents and the Legal Society. FEMA is very, very interested in talking with me.

justalayman · Dec 16, 2005

Sorry guys. The statute you doc'd here is in relation to UTILITY owned devices. It is also in regards to altering and so forth to steal electricity.
The OP did not state as to how the elec was turned off. Typically in an electrical installation the only part that actually belongs to the utility is the actual meter. In some areas the meter box ( the part in which the meter is mounted) may belong to the utility. Other than that the electrical system is owned by the homeowner.

The OP specifically stated somebody tampered with his circuit breakers. This would not be utiltiy property.

Additionally if you have water coming out of receptacle boxes, TURN OFF THE ELECTRICITY!!!!! This can cause a hazardous and possibly lethal situation.

CdwJava · Dec 16, 2005

Ours are written the same way but have been interpreted in the courts to apply to any interference with power through the meters. While I can't speak for FL law on the matter, if I had to guess I'd say that is the section that would apply.

I'd say it's a good one to lay on the police. Or, to lay on the management to get him to knock it off.

- Carl

justalayman · Dec 16, 2005

CdwJava said:
Ours are written the same way but have been interpreted in the courts to apply to any interference with power through the meters. While I can't speak for FL law on the matter, if I had to guess I'd say that is the section that would apply.

I'd say it's a good one to lay on the police. Or, to lay on the management to get him to knock it off.

- Carl[/QUOTE

Carl, Could you define "through the meter" is this concerning power flowing "through" the meter or more likely it would be more correct to refer to the electrical system "through the meter" which would mean that any part of the elec system from the utilities lines to a point "through the meter" terminating refererence at that point. Anything past the meter would not be included. This would make more sense being that any tampering past the meter would not result in theft of services. All power used would have passed through the meter and been recorded.
but still the statute refered to concerns the THEFT OF SERVICES. Turning off somebodies power would in no way fall under this statute even if done maliciously.
Additionally, if there are electrical devices exposed to water the Pres. might be able to defend himself on the basis that the water condition was causing a hazard and upon info from proper authorities turned it back on. Probably a BS way but a possibility.
It would seem that a possibility of trespass would be the most likely path to persue.

BlondiePB · Dec 17, 2005

Sorry guys. The statute you doc'd here is in relation to UTILITY owned devices. It is also in regards to altering and so forth to steal electricity.

Sorry, the statute was exactly what I needed.

The OP did not state as to how the elec was turned off.

I stated so in the initial post to this thread.

Typically in an electrical installation the only part that actually belongs to the utility is the actual meter. In some areas the meter box ( the part in which the meter is mounted) may belong to the utility.

No one is tampering with my meter.

Other than that the electrical system is owned by the homeowner.

The only persons that can touch my outside circuit breakers to my condo are myself, an electric inspector, and a fire inspector.

The OP specifically stated somebody tampered with his circuit breakers. This would not be utiltiy property.

Oh, brother!

Additionally if you have water coming out of receptacle boxes, TURN OFF THE ELECTRICITY!!!!! This can cause a hazardous and possibly lethal situation.

Without knowing facts, justalayman, just lay off! I voluntarily have kept my inside breakers off as documented by the electric inspector the previous week and the fire inspector. Via a PM, I told Carl my breakers were voluntarily kept off.

This is malicious tampering/trespassing targeted to me. There are 9 units in my building that are occupied with water coming through fixtures, walls, etc. and many other units unoccupied that also have water intrusion with the electricity running. No one but me thinks this is a problem, including the Board of Directors. I am trying to get the electricity shut off to the entire building. The inspectors will be back to do another unit-by-unit inspection the day after a good rain.

justalayman · Dec 17, 2005

BlondiePB said:
Sorry, the statute was exactly what I needed.

I stated so in the initial post to this thread.

No one is tampering with my meter.

The only persons that can touch my outside circuit breakers to my condo are myself, an electric inspector, and a fire inspector.

Oh, brother!

Without knowing facts, justalayman, just lay off! I voluntarily have kept my inside breakers off as documented by the electric inspector the previous week and the fire inspector. Via a PM, I told Carl my breakers were voluntarily kept off.

This is malicious tampering/trespassing targeted to me. There are 9 units in my building that are occupied with water coming through fixtures, walls, etc. and many other units unoccupied that also have water intrusion with the electricity running. No one but me thinks this is a problem, including the Board of Directors. I am trying to get the electricity shut off to the entire building. The inspectors will be back to do another unit-by-unit inspection the day after a good rain.

I only have the facts as you post them. If you have your breakers voluntarily turned off then what diff does it make if somebody turned anything else off. How would you know? As far as the list you gave as the only people allowed to turn off your breakers. Ya right. In the situation I described the liable party would not only have a right but a DUTY to do so to limit liability. As far as the statute...read it well...it does not apply. If the courts have somewhere extended this statute then it is within those courts but as written this statute does not apply. If you re-read my posts they were in no way meant to be harrassing and I believe they are not written so also evidenced by the concern of the lethality of the situation.

As far as my previous post you should note that it was directed to Carl, a poster whom I have much respect for, asking HIS opinion. As well you might read the last line of my last previous post!

CdwJava · Dec 17, 2005

justalayman said:
Carl, Could you define "through the meter" is this concerning power flowing "through" the meter or more likely it would be more correct to refer to the electrical system "through the meter" which would mean that any part of the elec system from the utilities lines to a point "through the meter" terminating refererence at that point.

A specific answer to that is beyond my area of knowledge. All I can say is that we have similarly worded statutes in my state, and a statute such as this would apply in Blondie's case out here. Whether it has been so interpreted in her state I cannot say.

It is the part about willfully tampering with any device "meter, meter seal, pipe, conduit, wire, line, cable, transformer, amplifier, or other apparatus or device" that would seem to be the link here. I don't know how it is in FL, but out here, the breaker panel is generally installed by the utility or its licensed subcontractor when the home is built. And even though it is not generally "owned" by the utility itself, since it is a part of the delivery of said utility service, it seems to be applied so. So tampering with the flow of power could well be covered in this section.

Also note the various definitions of a "utility".

All power used would have passed through the meter and been recorded.
but still the statute refered to concerns the THEFT OF SERVICES. Turning off somebodies power would in no way fall under this statute even if done maliciously.

Only the latter half of the section covers theft of services. Section (2) covers alteration or tampering.

It may not be the proper statute in FL, but not being in FL I don't know the status of the law on the matter. A call to the DA or to the police might answer the question of at least local applicability to the section.

- Carl

rmet4nzkx · Dec 17, 2005

justalayman said:
I only have the facts as you post them. If you have your breakers voluntarily turned off then what diff does it make if somebody turned anything else off. How would you know? As far as the list you gave as the only people allowed to turn off your breakers. Ya right. In the situation I described the liable party would not only have a right but a DUTY to do so to limit liability. As far as the statute...read it well...it does not apply. If the courts have somewhere extended this statute then it is within those courts but as written this statute does not apply. If you re-read my posts they were in no way meant to be harrassing and I believe they are not written so also evidenced by the concern of the lethality of the situation.

As far as my previous post you should note that it was directed to Carl, a poster whom I have much respect for, asking HIS opinion. As well you might read the last line of my last previous post!

So, in response to your assinine response to me:

I hope your electrical system shorts out energizing you with the full power that 120 volts can offer. At your premises you probably have in excess of 10,000 (instantanious) amps available to kill you. It is such a horrific way to die. If that should fail then may the black mold take harbor in your lungs and affect you in such a way that your internal organs liquify and causes you to realize that being an ******* for no apparent reason is not an acceptable way to live.

Your post is totally inappropriate and a violation of the TOS, Please delete it!

justalayman · Dec 17, 2005

CdwJava said:
A specific answer to that is beyond my area of knowledge. All I can say is that we have similarly worded statutes in my state, and a statute such as this would apply in Blondie's case out here. Whether it has been so interpreted in her state I cannot say.

It is the part about willfully tampering with any device "meter, meter seal, pipe, conduit, wire, line, cable, transformer, amplifier, or other apparatus or device" that would seem to be the link here. I don't know how it is in FL, but out here, the breaker panel is generally installed by the utility or its licensed subcontractor when the home is built. And even though it is not generally "owned" by the utility itself, since it is a part of the delivery of said utility service, it seems to be applied so. So tampering with the flow of power could well be covered in this section.

Also note the various definitions of a "utility".

Only the latter half of the section covers theft of services. Section (2) covers alteration or tampering.

It may not be the proper statute in FL, but not being in FL I don't know the status of the law on the matter. A call to the DA or to the police might answer the question of at least local applicability to the section.

- Carl

I respectfully disagree. Utility is defined in section one. Actually quite clear with very little interpretion possible.esp note: entities conerning "sale, generation, provision, or delivery". It would be a very far stretch to somehow include the home owner

sections 2a, 2b, and 2c clearly state the theft of services as being the intent of the statute.

Your quote here:" It is the part about willfully tampering with any device "meter, meter seal, pipe, conduit, wire, line, cable, transformer, amplifier, or other apparatus or device" that would seem to be the link here"

Changes completely when you include the immediately following "belonging to a utility line service in such a manner as to cause loss or damage or to prevent any meter installed for registering electricity, gas, or water from registering the quantity which otherwise would pass through the same;"

removes it from use by the OP. The obvious intent is to address theft of services and the only entity it is meant to provide protection and relief for is the utilities (as defined in section 1)

While there are probably other laws pertaining to theft of electricity that a concern a home owner, this just isn't it and in fact is not a part of this situation.

I believe that trespass, (?) criminal mischief, or other laws are probably the best remedy.

Your suggestion of a call to the DA is probably the next best step for her/him.
And still it's been great discussing/debating with you

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