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run red light in PA

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jia hu

Junior Member
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? PA with NJ license.

I was going south bound and crossing a traffic light controlled 4-way intersection. I entered the intersection while the light was yellow and the light changed to red before I left the intersection. A cop car was on the opposit side of the intersection (north bound) waiting for left-turn signal turned on the flash-light, made a U-turn, catched me up at about half mile south of the intersection and pulled me over. I was told he saw me driving above limit (45), but couldn't clock me; he saw me run red light.

Two issues regarding cop's observision:
1) cop's car was in north bound, so cop couldn't the lights control south bound traffic. He must have used north bount lights as a reference. Is this acceptable by the court? I think this indirect reference is not valid without proving that the lights in both direction are precisely in synch.
2) cop's car stopped at the north bound stop line while I was crossing the intersection, the position while I crossed my stop line (south bound stop line), from the cop's car view point, is at the 10-clock direction and more than 150 feet away. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to make a clear view.

By the way, the intersection has automated traffic cameras. Can I ask the court to order the release of relevant pictures, if there is any, that could support cop's observation? Since I'm sure I entered the intersection while yellow, such pictures won't ever exist.

I'm going to plead not guilty. Please advice what approach should I take to defence.

Thanks.
 


racer72

Senior Member
All the officer had to do was watch the east/west bound lights turn green while you were in the intersection. Makes it obvious you ran a red light. I would suggest talking to a local attorney and discussing your options, your excuses won't hold much water in court.
 

sukharev

Member
jia hu said:
Two issues regarding cop's observision:
1) cop's car was in north bound, so cop couldn't the lights control south bound traffic. He must have used north bount lights as a reference. Is this acceptable by the court? I think this indirect reference is not valid without proving that the lights in both direction are precisely in synch.
2) cop's car stopped at the north bound stop line while I was crossing the intersection, the position while I crossed my stop line (south bound stop line), from the cop's car view point, is at the 10-clock direction and more than 150 feet away. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to make a clear view.

By the way, the intersection has automated traffic cameras. Can I ask the court to order the release of relevant pictures, if there is any, that could support cop's observation? Since I'm sure I entered the intersection while yellow, such pictures won't ever exist.
1) Forget about precise synch, a couple seconds would not matter

2) The cop would just say he did have a clear view, and unless you have pictures to prove he did not, his testimony would stand

3) To get all documents relating to citation (like picture from the camera), you need to do discovery, so call the court to find out whom to send it to. Send a copy to police department and to the court's clerk. You can get any evidence that may show you are innocent (Google Brady and discovery), as long as it exists and is in government possession. Request same info via Freedom of Information Act. Timeline is 30 days from receipt of request, so plan your court date accordingly and ask for continuance if needed.

4) All above said, your case is thin, and likely not worthwhile arguing in court. Instead, you would be better off talking to prosecutor right before the trial, if the court does this for red light violations. If not, then you can just plead guilty with explanation and ask the judge for leniency. The end goal is to reduce your charge to a non-moving violation.

5) Even if you are found guilty, it's 2 points for your license (if PA even transferes your violation), not likely to justify hiring a lawyer.
 

jia hu

Junior Member
I went to the court this morning to hand in my not plead guilty paper and learned from a clerk that there is no prosecutor and/or DA available for traffic hearing. Instead, I will have chance talk to the police before the hearing. Does it make sense to work out a bargain with the police just like what I would be able to do with the prosecutor? My bottom line is keep it off record, at least avoid PA transfers my violation back to my home state. What is a good strategy to achieve that?

racer72:
You made a good point. I'll go to the same intersection again to find out how much delay exists between s/n turning to red and e/w turning to green.
 

sukharev

Member
If you talk to police officer, it's similar, he may or may not offer you a deal. It depends on his intentions, time he has to spare, and maybe on what the judge wanted. One thing is for sure: you do not want to say anything except that you are sorry, and did not mean to run red light, as far as you could see it was yellow. Forget about timing, or if officer had clear view. He thinks you ran the light, and would not tolerate any argument. Save this for the judge, if what officer tells you is not satisfactory (I mean, if he does not offer any reduction to non-moving violation).

Keep in mind, any moving violation would transfer to NJ as 2 points. So, unless officer reduces the charge, continue to court, and argue your case (with all due respect to both officer and judge). Present pictures, testify, whatever. Most likely it would not be anything like the real court. Instead, expect a roomfull of people just like you, so your goal is to get in first, and hope that the judge is not tired yet. Expect a 50/50 coin toss decision.

Good Luck.
 

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