need help - please ...

Doggy Doo Doo

What state do you reside in? Maryland

OK - I've done some research but still am not sure what to do. I bought a dog from a breeder in a different state then where I reside. The dog got an infectious disease shortly after arriving to us. Not a huge deal however, the breeder wouldn't sell me a different puppy from the same litter as mine, due to the same illness – hence my dog caught the bacterial illness at her kennel. It’s not a serious disease, and the dog is fine now however, I'm out over $200 for vet bills.

I contacted the breeder right when I found out my dog was sick, and she said that she would pay for the antibiotics. I told her I would call her once he gets better, and let her know exactly how much it all came to so we could make a compromise.

Well, I sent a certified letter with all the bills and a letter stating that I think its only fair for her to pay half the vet bills. She never picked up the letter from the post office but, then I emailed her all the same stuff and she said that she "wouldn't mind paying" however, since I acted like I was an expert on dog illnesses that she didn't think she should not pay. Yeah, doesn't make any sense but, I don't think she is educated (since she didn't use punctuation and her spelling was very fourth grade). Plus, I’m in medical school so I’m very familiar with micro and I think she was offended that I accused her of knowing the dog could possibly be infected – but, it was common sense since the bacteria is extremely contagious and one of the dogs in her kennel was infected (and we don’t have any other dogs so he couldn’t have gotten sick once he arrived).

Anyway, I want to sue her for the full vet bills since I'm going to have to spend much more time to get her to court. Am I going to have to sue her in her home state (which is over 200 miles away from mine) or can I file suit in my court since the dog was shipped to me in an airplane? Also, does anyone think I have a suit - I know it would be hard to prove if she didn't send me that email saying she would pay but, now I feel like I have proof that she said she would pay.

Thanks so much for any advice .

Have you reported her for selling and shipping infected dogs?
Have you considered the dog may have been infected in transit?
What is the infection?
You had a puppy shipped during the dead of winter rather than pick it up only 200 miles away in another state?

rmet4nzkx said:

Have you reported her for selling and shipping infected dogs?
Have you considered the dog may have been infected in transit?
What is the infection?
You had a puppy shipped during the dead of winter rather than pick it up only 200 miles away in another state?

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No - I don't know where to report her. She isn't registered with the BBB and I have done internet searches and can't really find a place to report her - maybe the SPCA????

I doubt he was infected in transit its a possiblity however, since the dog at her kennel was sick its much more likely he got it there and the travel weakened his immune system making him more susceptible to becoming ill. I didn't know what the other dog was sick with (and I know I should have asked but I was so excited to get a puppy that I had blinders on) - I actually assumed it was a genetic problem with that dog (he wasn't my dogs brother - he was born around the same time from different parents). When I found out my dog had the infection I put two and two together and she admitted it was the same infection when I caller her as soon as I found out what my puppy had.

The infection was infective tracheobronchitis - also known as kennel cough.

He was shipped in November and the weather was actually really nice during the transit - average temps were 50 - 60 degrees. I never would have a puppy shipped in the freezing cold.

loveumms said:

No - I don't know where to report her. She isn't registered with the BBB and I have done internet searches and can't really find a place to report her - maybe the SPCA????

I doubt he was infected in transit its a possiblity however, since the dog at her kennel was sick its much more likely he got it there and the travel weakened his immune system making him more susceptible to becoming ill. I didn't know what the other dog was sick with (and I know I should have asked but I was so excited to get a puppy that I had blinders on) - I actually assumed it was a genetic problem with that dog (he wasn't my dogs brother - he was born around the same time from different parents). When I found out my dog had the infection I put two and two together and she admitted it was the same infection when I caller her as soon as I found out what my puppy had.

The infection was infective tracheobronchitis - also known as kennel cough.

He was shipped in November and the weather was actually really nice during the transit - average temps were 50 - 60 degrees. I never would have a puppy shipped in the freezing cold.

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Start with the SPCA in her state.
What kind of puppy? You do realize 50-60 degrees can vary about the same amount in the cargo hold and very hard on a puppy.

Now Kennel cough can be caused by several specific types of bacteria (commonly Bordetella bronchiseptica infection) and virusis, you only gave a common term not the specific infeciton as I asked. Such infections occur approximately 3-5 days following exposure, that should give you a better idea. Like with humans, treatment with antibiotics is not the first course of aciton, docs often respond to Robotussin DM. You may, however consider vaccination especially if your dog is exposed to other dogs such as in dog shows or training classes, dog parks.

Your dog is going to cost you a lot of money down the road, do you have time for a dog and medical school, internships, residency etc?

rmet4nzkx said:

Start with the SSPSC in her state.
What kind of puppy? You do realize 50-60 degrees can vary about the same amount in the cargo hold and very hard on a puppy.

Now Kennel cough can be caused by several specific types of bacteria (commonly Bordetella bronchiseptica infection) and virusis, you only gave a common term not the specific infeciton as I asked. Such infections occur approximately 3-5 days following exposure, that should give you a better idea. Like with humans, treatment with antibiotics is not the first course of aciton, docs often respond to Robotussin DM. You may, however consider vaccination especially if your dog is exposed to other dogs such as in dog shows or training classes, dog parks.

Your dog is going to cost you a lot of money down the road, do you have time for a dog and medical school, internships, residency etc?

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Geez - I didn't come on here to be asked questions about my devotion to my dog. Yes, I do have time for a dog and my fiance is a mortgage broker and is home quite often for the dog.

I also, didn't want advice on how to raise my dog - I have had many dogs in my lifetime (well, my parents have) and I know they cost a great deal of money and I am prepared to spend it however, not on things that could have been prevented in the first place.

At the first vet visit, my dog had a CBC drawn and it showed a left shift (meaning neutrophils were elevated = dog had a bacterial, not viral infection). And, actually the infection can stay dormant for almost two weeks. If the dogs immune system is weakened by travel, other illness or stress in general it can become infected. And, since the neutrophils were elevated WAY above normal - he was put right on antibiotics since the infection can lead to a very serious pneumonia if left untreated.

Furthermore, I didn't ask for a culture to be done considering that would have probably costed another $50 and to be quite honest it would be pointless since the CBC showed an elevated PMN - hence, it was bacterial and could be treated with antibiotics.

The dog was vaccinated for kennel cough however, as I'm sure you already know - vaccinations do not protect against bacterial illness.

Can someone please tell me if I have to sue in her county? Thanks

loveumms said:

Geez - I didn't come on here to be asked questions about my devotion to my dog. Yes, I do have time for a dog and my fiance is a mortgage broker and is home quite often for the dog.

I also, didn't want advice on how to raise my dog - I have had many dogs in my lifetime (well, my parents have) and I know they cost a great deal of money and I am prepared to spend it however, not on things that could have been prevented in the first place.

At the first vet visit, my dog had a CBC drawn and it showed a left shift (meaning neutrophils were elevated = dog had a bacterial, not viral infection). And, actually the infection can stay dormant for almost two weeks. If the dogs immune system is weakened by travel, other illness or stress in general it can become infected. And, since the neutrophils were elevated WAY above normal - he was put right on antibiotics since the infection can lead to a very serious pneumonia if left untreated.

Furthermore, I didn't ask for a culture to be done considering that would have probably costed another $50 and to be quite honest it would be pointless since the CBC showed an elevated PMN - hence, it was bacterial and could be treated with antibiotics.

The dog was vaccinated for kennel cough however, as I'm sure you already know - vaccinations do not protect against bacterial illness.

Can someone please tell me if I have to sue in her county? Thanks

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You have a questionable case at best because you didn't get the culture to prove that the "Kennel cough" was caused by a bacterial form such as, Bordetella bronchiseptica, as you initially claimed. Left shift on neutrophils is not is not proof that your puppy contracted the infection at the breeders. Another reason the breed is important because there may be a genetic reason as you first suspected. You failed to answer how long after the puppy was shipped that the signs of infection began but I am assuming it was more than 5 days due to your avoidance and defensiveness. Most people are dehydrated by air travel and not uncommon to develop a cough or URI, persons with genetic disorders such as A1AD often experience exacerbatons following air travel. Air travel is a stress to the body, human and animal alike.

It is wonderful that you had many pets over the years, but it was your parents who were responsible for the amimals care and you have a lot to learn, especially about litigation since you are entering the medical field. It is good you have someone else to be responsible for your dog now.

A reasonable person would have feched the puppy from a breeder 200 miles away via ground transportation to minimize the stress on the puppy at which point you could have evaluated the puppy's general health and the conditions at the breeders.

I can see why the breeder may have at first agreed to pay if the puppy was tested and found to have a bacterial form of tracheobronchitis infection caused by Bordetella bronchiseptica, if other puppies, not litermates also had the same form. I can see why they might decline to pay since you can't prove the puppy actually got the infeciton from the breeder and not from the stress of travel.

Take this as a lesson in life. If it was too much trouble to fech your puppy, it is too much trouble to go to small claims court to fight a questionable case. You would have spent money on a Vet initially for their first visit anyway.

rmet4nzkx said:

You have a questionable case at best because you didn't get the culture to prove that the "Kennel cough" was caused by a bacterial form such as, Bordetella bronchiseptica, as you initially claimed. Left shift on neutrophils is not is not proof that your puppy contracted the infection at the breeders. Another reason the breed is important because there may be a genetic reason as you first suspected. You failed to answer how long after the puppy was shipped that the signs of infection began but I am assuming it was more than 5 days due to your avoidance and defensiveness. Most people are dehydrated by air travel and not uncommon to develop a cough or URI, persons with genetic disorders such as A1AD often experience exacerbatons following air travel. Air travel is a stress to the body, human and animal alike.

It is wonderful that you had many pets over the years, but it was your parents who were responsible for the amimals care and you have a lot to learn, especially about litigation since you are entering the medical field. It is good you have someone else to be responsible for your dog now.

A reasonable person would have feched the puppy from a breeder 200 miles away via ground transportation to minimize the stress on the puppy at which point you could have evaluated the puppy's general health and the conditions at the breeders.

I can see why the breeder may have at first agreed to pay if the puppy was tested and found to have a bacterial form of tracheobronchitis infection caused by Bordetella bronchiseptica, if other puppies, not litermates also had the same form. I can see why they might decline to pay since you can't prove the puppy actually got the infeciton from the breeder and not from the stress of travel.

Take this as a lesson in life. If it was too much trouble to fech your puppy, it is too much trouble to go to small claims court to fight a questionable case. You would have spent money on a Vet initially for their first visit anyway.

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Actually the puppy started to show symptoms about a week after he was shipped - and I took him to the vet shortly thereafter (probably a total of 10 days from when he was shipped to actually getting the vet appointment).

I guess I will decide on my own if I want to sue and find out on my own if I have to go there (which is unlikely but, who knows what I will do with my time off this summer – maybe I’ll take a trip).

The fact that it was a left band shift means that it was a bacterial illness - a culture is not needed to prove cause since there was a history of contact with a puppy that had the illness and he had the elevated PMNs.

Left shift means the neutrophils (PMNs) are elevated - those are the cells that fight bacterial infections. Lymphocytes are the cell lines that fight off viruses. His lymphocyte count was not elevated however the neutrophil count was sky high – the vet was very concerned b/c he rarely sees counts that high and since he was so young at the time he was worried that the dog might get much sicker.

Of course this left shift doesn't prove that my dog contracted the illness from the kennel however, if there were dogs who were infected prior to shipping and my dog got the SAME illness shortly after arriving - any idiot can put two and two together and find a link.

I'm sure that the arguments of "well, he could have contracted it in transit" will come up but, the fact that she stated in writing that she wouldn't mind paying for it and that she knew a few dogs at her kennel were infected proves she knew the illness was present. Her whole reason for not paying for it now is that I offended her by acting like an expert in dog illnesses (since I told her in my letter that I had done research and understood the pathology of the illness – not trying to be offensive but stating that I understand the illness and its course).

Really, this isn't all about money. Spending $200 to make sure my puppy got better wasn't a big deal - heck I would spend $1000 since his health is just as important as mine. It’s really about the principle - if you say you are going to pay for something and you know darn well what you are agreeing to, you should pay up when the time comes. I don't go back on my word and I guess I expect the same of other people. And, considering I am asking for $80 I don’t think that is unreasonable – especially since I actually spent $246.25 in total for all the visits, antibiotics and blood tests.

And - when I said the breeder is over 200 miles away I wasn't being exact. She actually lives 841.6 miles from me - which would mean a two day drive there and two day drive back. Unfortunately, I couldn't do that at the time considering I didn't own a car (we live downtown) and I couldn't just take a week off at whim. I looked high and low for a breeder in this area who sold this specific breed and the only one that was close enough to drive didn't have any puppies and wouldn't have any for the next six months. Sure, ideally I would have loved to see his parents and the breeding facilities but, that wasn't in the cards.

I feel like I am defending myself here - but, I actually took care of my previous dogs too (of course I didn't drive them to the vet and pay for them since I was too young) but, I did the day to day stuff. And, I don't have someone else to be responsible for my dog now – my fiancé and I both take care of him.

As far as your claim that I have a lot to learn about litigation - that is why I came onto this forum. I’ll venture that you know a lot about medicine – since you are very well versed in the language however, I’m sure you have a lot to learn about health care .

I don't have a law degree - I will have a medical degree. That is why I pay so much for malpractice insurance (hopefully will never need it). But if the need arises, I will have someone who knows much more then I about medical law to defend me. We actually have had a few classes on medical law and how to cover our butts but, those classes didn't cover small claims cases and what I found on the internet didn’t satisfy my need to know either.

Thanks for your advice - I know this was a life lesson and next time I will get everything in writing from the get-go (ie don't trust anyone’s word which is sad).

Oh - also in order to get a culture they would have had to get a tracheal wash under anesthesia. The dog was only 10 weeks at the time and I don't think anesthesia would have been appropriate to find an exact cause of infection - especially considering the fact that we knew it was bacterial.

If it was thought that the bacteria were resistant (if he wouldn't have shown improvement in symptoms after abx treatment) then that the tracheal wash be warrented.

Yes I do have medical training in fact I am an expert witness and a part of what I do is review medical records and testify in court as to the cause, based on the evidence. I am very experienced. BTW I also have a doctorate.

You have not met the burden of proof.

You should have had an appointment to have your puppy examined by the vet the day/next day from arrival at which time the puppy would have received a thorough examination and necessary tests and vaccinations.

Your puppy didn't show signs until a full week following arrival, placing the cause sometine during or after shipping. They have emergency clinics for animals and even if you couldn't get an appointment, most vets would have made room or given you some advice re care in the mean time if your puppy was so ill.

The stress of travel affects the immune system which can in turn affect the labs.

It is not the principle that matters, what matters is that you were so excited to get this puppy that you failed to privide for it's appropriate care and legally you have not met the burden of proof. It will cost you a lot more time and money to fight the breeder in court about something that isn't their fault.

Take your time off this summer and have a nice vacation with your puppy, don't spend it in court fighting a loosing battle, it isn't good for wither of you.

PS there is a big difference between over 200 MI and almost 900 MI!

Your cause of action would probably be breach of contract and since you entered the contract in her location you'll have to sue there...You will then have to prove the contract terms...not easy since the contract was probably oral...you will need to prove that she agreed to provide an animal with none of the usual puppy illnesses (of course kennel cough is extremely common and I can assure if you had bought the puppy from a pet store they would not have paid the vet bill). Her admissions and email agreeing to pay could be evidence but that does not necessarily mean she will be held liable if you cannot prove what I have included here. Bottom line...don't think I would spend the money to bring this for $246.00.

weenor said:

Your cause of action would probably be breach of contract and since you entered the contract in her location you'll have to sue there...You will then have to prove the contract terms...not easy since the contract was probably oral...you will need to prove that she agreed to provide an animal with none of the usual puppy illnesses (of course kennel cough is extremely common and I can assure if you had bought the puppy from a pet store they would not have paid the vet bill). Her admissions and email agreeing to pay could be evidence but that does not necessarily mean she will be held liable if you cannot prove what I have included here. Bottom line...don't think I would spend the money to bring this for $246.00.

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Thanks - I guess I will just wait it out and hope that she keeps her word and pays.

Nowhere in all the pontifications by the original poster do I find the terms of the contract of purchase or terms of the purchase as agreed to by both parties before money was paid and the puppy was received. I find no statement of warranty that the puppy will be free of any physical ailment or that medical (vet) expenses will be paid for any condition or for any length of time. I find no governing authority to whom the seller must comply.

I believe the medical term for the original poster's condition is, "SOL".

EC

ellencee said:

Nowhere in all the pontifications by the original poster do I find the terms of the contract of purchase or terms of the purchase as agreed to by both parties before money was paid and the puppy was received. I find no statement of warranty that the puppy will be free of any physical ailment or that medical (vet) expenses will be paid for any condition or for any length of time. I find no governing authority to whom the seller must comply.

I believe the medical term for the original poster's condition is, "SOL".

EC

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There was a health contract that said the puppy would be free of any major genetic defects. Which, he was. There was no warranty that the puppy would not have an infectious disease. So, as far as contracts go I am "SOL".

There is no "governing authority to whom the seller must comply" however, she stated she would pay for a portion of the bill. Like I've said before - I feel that if you give someone your word, you have to keep that promise. Not only that, she wrote the following in an email to me:

"i don't mind paying the money but what i have a problem with is your facts are not the whole truth because you do not have expertize in the field. any body can read some info and think they know everything about the subject."

When I read that, I deduce the reason she decided she now didn't want to pay me was b/c I told her I had read up on infective tracheobronchitis and knew that the infection can lay dormant and when the dog is stressed it can weaken the immune system and cause the once sub-clinical infection to become active and cause symptoms.

Furthermore, in one of her emails to me, the breeder said that another one of the dogs got sick also. Then in the same sentence tried telling me that sometimes the vaccine can cause the dogs to get sick and this might be why my puppy got sick

Also, what I didn't mention in my previous posts was that one of my colleagues also purchased a puppy from her exactly one week after we did (I actually recommended this breeder since they were looking for the same breed and there were no breeders in our area).

They received their puppy on a Friday, Saturday morning they had to take him for an emergency vet visit b/c he was hacking terribly. Guess what their dog had???? Same thing - infective tracheobronchitis. Not only that, he also had a left PMN shift which leads me to believe that the puppies suffered from the same infection. I guess they would have a better case then me since the dog was sick right after arriving. Of course, they could have sent the dog back (since it was sick) but, they had already fallen in love with it and in the end sending it back could have made the dog sicker.

So, in the end I realize that I should have gotten her promise to pay in writing and the lesson I’ve learned is that you can’t trust anyone – everything has to be in writing.

rmet4nzkx - just wondering what kind of doc you are? How did you get into being an expert witness? It seems like it would be a very interesting job ... do you typically work for the plaintiff or the defense. I was thinking that somewhere down the road I might be interested in doing something like that. Do you also have a law degree? Sorry for the thousand ?s I'm just curious.

Thanks

OP unless chickie pays voluntarily....you must have a cause of action to collect money from the courts. You can't have a negligence cause of action because YOU were not damaged. (No your vet bills do not count and you do not have standing to sue for your dog's pain and suffering) Although many others have tried you can't prevail on negligence or malpractice for animals. In the eyes of the law you purchased property- like a computer... Perhaps you have a cause for fraud or contract as I suggested...but from you post it does not appear that you have sufficient evidence of any misrepresentations, fraud, promissory fraud, breach of contract or breach of warranty. Please note that in any of things causes you will only receive either a recission of the contract(giving the puppy back) or money damages (the $246.00) you paid out...You don't want to give the puppy back and why would anyone in their right mind travel 800+ miles to sue for $246.00 !!!

P.S. Her promise to pay you back in the future is not legaly cognizable- In other words the law does not recognize this as actionable.

loveumms said:

rmet4nzkx - just wondering what kind of doc you are? How did you get into being an expert witness? It seems like it would be a very interesting job ... do you typically work for the plaintiff or the defense. I was thinking that somewhere down the road I might be interested in doing something like that. Do you also have a law degree? Sorry for the thousand ?s I'm just curious.

Thanks

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Reccomending the breeder to another and then suing them well how would that look to a judge? Thanks for adding that tidbit after all these posts. If the infection came from the vaccination, well that is possible but your friends took the puppy to the vet right away. As you have been told, when all is said an done, you do not have a cause of action, even for a contract nor can you meet the burden of proof.

Thank you for the interest in my work. I have extensive education and degrees, none of which can prepare anyone to become an expert witness no matter the field, there is far more to it than that, the key factor being a "gift". Without the "gift" any career aspirations would fall short. Please take this in the best possible light, interesting as it may be, you don't have the "gift". Your task is to study well and perhaps while you are in medical school and your postraduate training and experience you will discover your gift.

Now what breed of dog is this?