Is this ethical and legal?

NEW JERSEY

I have an attorney who I am having a falling out with because I have learned the attorney has many personal issues as well severe tax issues with the IRS. I have loaned the attorney money on three occassions and have written the word LOAN on two out of three checks and made a journal record in my checkbook ledger of the three checks as being loans. The attorney is trying to claim that some of the money I LOANED him to be a retainer for services. The attorney has paid me back most of the money I loaned him except for a portion of the loan and trying to claim most of the money I loaned him to be a retainer for services. On one occassion the attorney asked me to pay him with a material possession as to avoid running the fee/funds through his office to avoid paying the IRS money. Do I have a claim against this attorney? He is handing a complicated matter for me and I believe he is incompetent because of his personal issues. I am not happy with his performance to date and feel he has sold me a bill of goods about what he will do. I believe the attorney does not care to handle my case because of class envy. The attorney has sold me on his alleged abilities and is now dropping the ball. I believe the reason the attorney is dropping the ball (behaving incompetently) and what I believe to be unethical behavior and/or illegal activity is because of his personal life issues and he has stated to me that I have too much money anyway. This is NOT acceptable. Please advise.What is the name of your state?

sentinel said:

Do I have a claim against this attorney?

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Depends on what you mean by 'claim'. Based solely on your post, it would appear that you MAY have a claim for any unpaid loans. I don't see any other specific claim that you might make.

Please advise.

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From the irrational 'tone' of your post, it appears to me that you have some kind of prejudice or skew of his conduct. If you want (AND if you can put a reasonable claim together), you can certainly file a complaint with your local bar as to his conduct.

Thank you for the responses. I do not believe I have submitted information for anyone to make a statement about my "tone" being irrational. I am simply asking questions here as I am not an attorney. I am a law abiding citizen. I simply want to know the following without airing the content of my lawsuit:

1. Is it ethical and/or legal for an attorney to borrow money from his client?

2. Is it ethical and/or legal for an attorney to request his client to pay him with a material possession in lieu of cash as to avoid running funds through his office to avoid paying taxes on it. (I believe I know the answer to this question but would appreciate reading from those truly in the know).

I am having serious issues with the manner in which the attorney I am using is handling my matter.

Thank you in advance of anticipated rational replies.

sentinel said:

Is it ethical and/or legal for an attorney to borrow money from his client?

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As long as the client agrees, yes.

Is it ethical and/or legal for an attorney to request his client to pay him with a material possession in lieu of cash as to avoid running funds through his office to avoid paying taxes on it. (I believe I know the answer to this question but would appreciate reading from those truly in the know).

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It is perfectly legal for an attorney to 'barter' his services for anything that you wish to barter with. As for the tax issues, that is between the attorney and the IRS. Of course, you can certainly contact the IRS and report your belief of his possible evasion.

I am having serious issues with the manner in which the attorney I am using is handling my matter.

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Then discuss your concerns with him. And if you don't like the answers, move to another attorney.

Thank you for the reply. I do appreciate your input.

I am NOT trying to be contrary however I have had dialogue with another attorney today whom I personally know and his opinion is contrary to what you JETX have posted here. He states that it is unethical for an attorney, at least in the State of NJ to borrow money from a client. I was not aware of that. I respectfully ask if you JETX are an attorney and if so in what state are you practicing? I am also to understand that attorneys are not permitted to barter for services as this is a violation of tax code. I do not completely understand as to why an attorney is not permitted to barter but it appears to be a violation of tax code, something to the extent that an attorney is held to a higher standard and if an attorney takes a material possession of something in lieu of cash it is likely tax evasion. I am to understand from another opinion from a licensed attorney in NJ that these activities discussed herein are unethical on the part of the attorney in question and very possibly illegal despite the willingness or unwillingness or what the client agrees to or disagrees with. I am not trying to make something into what fits my desire. I am only trying to find the truth and what is acceptable in terms of the applicable laws which I strongly desire to adhere to. I simply desire to not get myself in a jam and plead ignorance which in fact to a large degree I admit I unfortunately am. I am making earnest effort to not be ignorant. I mean NO DISRESEPCT to any attorney and for the record I am NOT an attorney hater/basher. I have had excellent experiences with many attorneys to date and find most attorneys to be decent and reasonable people. No matter the profession there is both good and bad folks.

Thank you again for your input.

After having a consultation with an attorney who I believe to be competent I feel confident to post here as an FYI for those who are interested that what I posted before to be correct. Contrary to some of the input submitted here, it is in FACT unethical for an attorney to borrow money from a CLIENT, at least in NJ. For the sake of being clear, an attorney can borrow money from any person or institution except a client. An attorney is not permitted to barter either. An attorney is not permitted to date a client or have a financial interest in or with a client.

It is sickening to me that there is definitely a double standard taking place in our society as we know it. Many attorney's break the RULES all the time. I am not bashing the good lawyers but the good lawyers should/better start standing up for their profession and eradicate the bad lawyers that appear to be taking the profession by way of the toilet. My scenario is I am concerned about my reputation and not standing in court as either a witness or defendant myself. The joker I have representing me apparently feels he can make the rules/LAW up as he goes along. I have my own set of rules and ethics that have helped me do well in this life. My attorney talks a good game and constantly speaks about how ethical he is and in fact is one of the most judgemental people I have ever met in my life and it is obvious to me now that he is filthier than dirt itself.

Save the get another lawyer comments please. I posted this as an FYI for those who might be interested. I am in the process of doing exactly that and getting the money I loaned him and my FEE returned to me. I admit I am flaming to a degree but as I stated before I choose to comply with the law, at least most of it.

sentinel said:

After having a consultation with an attorney who I believe to be competent I feel confident to post here as an FYI for those who are interested that what I posted before to be correct. Contrary to some of the input submitted here, it is in FACT unethical for an attorney to borrow money from a CLIENT, at least in NJ. For the sake of being clear, an attorney can borrow money from any person or institution except a client. An attorney is not permitted to barter either. An attorney is not permitted to date a client or have a financial interest in or with a client.

It is sickening to me that there is definitely a double standard taking place in our society as we know it. Many attorney's break the RULES all the time. I am not bashing the good lawyers but the good lawyers should/better start standing up for their profession and eradicate the bad lawyers that appear to be taking the profession by way of the toilet. My scenario is I am concerned about my reputation and not standing in court as either a witness or defendant myself. The joker I have representing me apparently feels he can make the rules/LAW up as he goes along. I have my own set of rules and ethics that have helped me do well in this life. My attorney talks a good game and constantly speaks about how ethical he is and in fact is one of the most judgemental people I have ever met in my life and it is obvious to me now that he is filthier than dirt itself.

Save the get another lawyer comments please. I posted this as an FYI for those who might be interested. I am in the process of doing exactly that and getting the money I loaned him and my FEE returned to me. I admit I am flaming to a degree but as I stated before I choose to comply with the law, at least most of it.

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After having a consultation with an attorney who I believe to be competent I feel confident to post here as an FYI for those who are interested that what I posted before to be correct. Contrary to some of the input submitted here, it is in FACT unethical for an attorney to borrow money from a CLIENT, at least in NJ.

Actually, your beliefs are irrelevant.

What I would like from you is a cite to a case, canon, statute, law, ordinance, rule, etc. that upholds your assertion.

http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/oae/faqs/faqs.htm

Poster, ask these folks for an authoritative answer.

Your position, however, makes no sense. No lawyer (if you are correct) who represented a bank could borrow money from that bank.

Senior Judge - Thank you for the reply and information.

I am unclear why my position makes no sense to you when I stated, "Contrary to some of the input submitted here, it is in FACT unethical for an attorney to borrow money from a CLIENT, at least in NJ. For the sake of being clear, an attorney can borrow money from any person or institution except a client." I did state "except a client".

Regards

sentinel said:

Senior Judge - Thank you for the reply and information.

I am unclear why my position makes no sense to you when I stated, "Contrary to some of the input submitted here, it is in FACT unethical for an attorney to borrow money from a CLIENT, at least in NJ. For the sake of being clear, an attorney can borrow money from any person or institution except a client." I did state "except a client".

Regards

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My point exactly: If my client is a bank, you are telling me I cannot borrow money there.

In any event, call the NJ people and post a cite to a law we can look up.

Senior Judge - Thank you for the reply and information.

I am unclear why my position makes no sense to you when I stated, "Contrary to some of the input submitted here, it is in FACT unethical for an attorney to borrow money from a CLIENT, at least in NJ. For the sake of being clear, an attorney can borrow money from any person or institution except a client." I did state "except a client".

I believe an attorney can borrow money from a former client. I do not believe there is any issue with borrowing money as long as there is NO attorney-client current working relationship. To be clear, as long as there is NO representation taking place the attorney can borrow his/her hearts desire assuming the lending party is willing to make a loan.

I mean no disrespect to you however it is the constant "twisting" of facts and reality that is hurting the law profession and ultimately affecting private industry and people. One day it's OK to put your hand in the proverbial cookie jar and the next day the situation changes for the attorney and it's not OK to do what was acceptable yesterday. This is what I mean by making up the rules of the game whilst it is being played. This is precisely the type of "stuff" that needs to stop for the better of our laws and ultimately society.

Regards

sentinel said:

Senior Judge - Thank you for the reply and information.

I am unclear why my position makes no sense to you when I stated, "Contrary to some of the input submitted here, it is in FACT unethical for an attorney to borrow money from a CLIENT, at least in NJ. For the sake of being clear, an attorney can borrow money from any person or institution except a client." I did state "except a client".

I believe an attorney can borrow money from a former client. I do not believe there is any issue with borrowing money as long as there is NO attorney-client current working relationship. To be clear, as long as there is NO representation taking place the attorney can borrow his/her hearts desire assuming the lending party is willing to make a loan.

I mean no disrespect to you however it is the constant "twisting" of facts and reality that is hurting the law profession and ultimately affecting private industry and people. One day it's OK to put your hand in the proverbial cookie jar and the next day the situation changes for the attorney and it's not OK to do what was acceptable yesterday. This is what I mean by making up the rules of the game whilst it is being played. This is precisely the type of "stuff" that needs to stop for the better of our laws and ultimately society.

Regards

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I believe an attorney can borrow money from a former client. I do not believe there is any issue with borrowing money as long as there is NO attorney-client current working relationship. To be clear, as long as there is NO representation taking place the attorney can borrow his/her hearts desire assuming the lending party is willing to make a loan.

Again you make my point. If my client is a bank, I cannot borrow money from that bank (according to you).

RPC 1.8 CONFLICT OF INTEREST: PROHIBITED TRANSACTIONS
(a) A lawyer shall not enter into a business transaction with a client or knowingly acquire an ownership, possessory, security or other pecuniary interest adverse to a client unless (1) the transaction and terms in which the lawyer acquires the interest are fair and reasonable to the client and are fully disclosed and transmitted in writing to the client in manner and terms that should have reasonably been understood by the client, (2) the client is advised of the desirability of seeking and is given a reasonable opportunity to seek the advice of independent counsel of the client's choice on the transaction, and (3) the client consents in writing thereto.


The above is from the New Jersey Rules of Professional Conduct.

sentinel said:

After having a consultation with an attorney who I believe to be competent I feel confident to post here as an FYI for those who are interested that what I posted before to be correct. Contrary to some of the input submitted here, it is in FACT unethical for an attorney to borrow money from a CLIENT

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Sorry for being blunt, but you couldn't figure that one out on your own??
For what lawyers rake in, no one should have to loan them a dime, much less customer's money, for their services.

stephenk said:

RPC 1.8 CONFLICT OF INTEREST: PROHIBITED TRANSACTIONS
(a) A lawyer shall not enter into a business transaction with a client or knowingly acquire an ownership, possessory, security or other pecuniary interest adverse to a client unless (1) the transaction and terms in which the lawyer acquires the interest are fair and reasonable to the client and are fully disclosed and transmitted in writing to the client in manner and terms that should have reasonably been understood by the client, (2) the client is advised of the desirability of seeking and is given a reasonable opportunity to seek the advice of independent counsel of the client's choice on the transaction, and (3) the client consents in writing thereto.


The above is from the New Jersey Rules of Professional Conduct.

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Yep, and there is NOTHING in this thread to even suggest that rule was violated.... or did you overlook the "unless" part???