Failure to Stop

What is the name of your state? CA

Yes, hi, I just received a ticket for failure to stop. It is marked as an infraction of the law. The officer who stopped me told me I did not stop but was going 5mph through the stop sign. I do not know how he knew this being he did not have a radar gun. Anyway I CLEARLY remember coming to a stop, even though it was for a second (I remember feeling the weight shift in my vehicle that happens when you stop). This is at an intersection where there was NO traffic and only a three way stop where each stop is very easy to see if there is another car at the stop sign. So there was no need to stop for a long time since I would not have to wait for another car to go through. Anyway, I KNOW I stopped. Where the officer was sitting (and yes, he went back there again after me so he was obviously there to "catch" offenders), you can not see vehicles approaching until they are just a few feet from the line.

I am going to go to court and plead not guilty, as I feel that the officer lied when he said I did not stop and was going 5 mph. I go 5 mph down my driveway and it does seem fast. I was tired this day and was not driving that fast to begin. I stopped long enough to see that the intersection was clear and safe to proceed eventhough it may have been for a split second a few feet behind the line, but in front of the sign where I still had a clear view of the intersection and being this officer could not see my vehicle approach the intersection, perhaps was looking down, distracted or whatever and looked as I had already began my acceleration? I have photographs of the intersection showing it to be a slow, but very clear one. Will these help me in my case? It will just be my word against his, but do I even stand a chance eventhough I feel I am in the right? I have a clean driving record and eventhough I know I can pay the ticket and go to traffic school, I know I did nothing wrong. Is there anything else I should know/do before going to court? I am not sure if there was a videotape or not, so should I ask for discovery while at court to see if there is one? Do CHP still use quotas (I don't want to bring this up unless it's valid)?

Thank you for any advice you may have to offer in this matter.

What the intersection looks like and how many cars were around has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not you came to a complete stop. It will be your word versus the officer's. Although I can't offer help for this time around, I can offer advice so that it doesn't happen again: once you come to a complete stop, stay completely stopped and count to 3, and then proceed through the intersection; that way there will be absolutely no doubt.

it will most likely be worth your time to go to court - you can contest the bogus charge charge or simple ask for probation or some other reduced sentence.

the more visuals and reasoned explaination you bring the better imo.

it is a criminal charge for that reason alone i would contest any false charges.

The LEO should have to produce a card in CA stating his accuracy at visual speed estimation - since it probable won't be less than 5 mph that will work for you.

yes the leo will lie through his teeth - it is a given.

LEO's certianly do have a quota from the power's that be - they call it a "perfromance goal" now though wink. wink. -especially on something like this

For discovery of any video which may help you try this...

The national motorist association has a good kit...
http://www.motorists.org/issues/tickets/index.html

this site has some info on CA
http://www.helpigotaticket.com/sitemap.html
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DianneinCA said:

The officer who stopped me told me I did not stop but was going 5mph through the stop sign. I do not know how he knew this being he did not have a radar gun.

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One does not need a radar to see someone rolling through a stop sign. The law requires a person come to a complete stop at or before the limit line. the mistake many people make is rolling all the way to the corner before they come to a stop.

Anyway I CLEARLY remember coming to a stop, even though it was for a second (I remember feeling the weight shift in my vehicle that happens when you stop).

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Was the sign in front of you or beside you when you stopped?

See above.

This is at an intersection where there was NO traffic and only a three way stop where each stop is very easy to see if there is another car at the stop sign.

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A stop is still required.

Where the officer was sitting (and yes, he went back there again after me so he was obviously there to "catch" offenders), you can not see vehicles approaching until they are just a few feet from the line.

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That is a good point to bring up at court. If the officer is unable to clearly see the limit line, then this can be raised as reasnoable doubt. I would try to get a picture from his vantage point to show the court at trial.

I am not sure if there was a videotape or not, so should I ask for discovery while at court to see if there is one? Do CHP still use quotas (I don't want to bring this up unless it's valid)?

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Very few agencies in CA have video in their cars. Those that do do not have them running 24/7 - only AFTER the camera is activated when the lights go on or by manually flipping the switch.

And quotas have never been legal in CA. And you couldn't bring it up without some evidence, anyway.


- Carl

cepe10 said:

it will most likely be worth your time to go to court - you can contest the bogus charge charge or simple ask for probation or some other reduced sentence.

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That's right, EVERY cite is a "bogus stop".

Informal probation is not generally provided for these violations, and there is not really a lesser included offense that could be pled down to. However, some counties have been known to allow pleads to equipment violations even when not mentioned ... personally, I think that is unlawful, but I have seen it done.

The LEO should have to produce a card in CA stating his accuracy at visual speed estimation - since it probable won't be less than 5 mph that will work for you.

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We don't have to produce any such card. One does not need to have radar training (which is where officers receive their training in visual estimation) to see if a car has come to a complete stop at the limit line or not.

yes the leo will lie through his teeth - it is a given.

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Oh, please.

LEO's certianly do have a quota from the power's that be - they call it a "perfromance goal" now though

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Oh yes ... of course. That's it! No agency I have worked for has had such a thing. When one tried to pull that, they got slammed pretty hard on the labor issue.

Police unions in CA don't put up with these kinds of goals, and the public and the law does not either. When the administration does try to create this environment, the officers and their unions tend to fight it. When they come to light, defense attorneys get wind of them and wreak havoc with reasonable doubt in court. A quota is unlawful no matter what it might be called.


- Carl

CdwJava said:

One does not need a radar to see someone rolling through a stop sign. The law requires a person come to a complete stop at or before the limit line. the mistake many people make is rolling all the way to the corner before they come to a stop.Was the sign in front of you or beside you when you stopped?

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Well here's the deal, the stop sign is at the top of a hill (no corner, just a stop on a straight road). The stop sign is also a good 15 feet behind the line. I stopped a somewhere in between the stop sign and the line, but definitely not over the line. The officer told me I never stopped but went through the intersection at 5 mph, that's where I got that info from. A rolling stop or rolling through the intersection can be anywhere from 1 mph+, but 5 mph is pretty significant, I'd think anyway. I have taken photographs of the line/sign and then a photo of the view from where the CHP officer was sitting. He has maybe 2-3 feet of sight behind the line, then his view is blocked by a fence and a tall tree (also in the photo). I definitely recall being tired and driving a little slower than the speed limit when I reached the top of the hill. I stopped and even the view from the stop sign, you can see the other two lines/signs of the intersection from that far back. But I know I stopped somewhere slightly in front of the sign, but definitely behind the line. I drive this road at least twice a day and I know that the CHP does hang out there often, so I would be stupid not to stop. I think that perhaps the officer may not have seen my stop, either he was distracted when I approached or I stopped just out of his view.

CdwJava said:

That is a good point to bring up at court. If the officer is unable to clearly see the limit line, then this can be raised as reasnoable doubt. I would try to get a picture from his vantage point to show the court at trial.

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See above, thanks for the information Carl. I did go and take photos yesterday afterwards. He is there often, would it be acceptable to take a photo of him at that spot?

CdwJava said:

And quotas have never been legal in CA. And you couldn't bring it up without some evidence, anyway.

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Ok that's why I asked. I don't want to come off that way, trying to lay blame. I know I stopped, I just guess not at the spot he had anticipated or when he wasn't looking. I can prove by photos, that you cannot see vehicles approaching the sign/line until the vehicle is there.

Thank you to the others who have also offered information. I appreciate it very much.

Dianne

DianneinCA said:

The stop sign is also a good 15 feet behind the line. I stopped a somewhere in between the stop sign and the line, but definitely not over the line.

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But if you stopped well before the line, that's no good either. The section says you shall stop "at" the limit line ... a little before is generally okay, but a few feet may not be good.

The officer told me I never stopped but went through the intersection at 5 mph, that's where I got that info from.

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Perhaps he saw that you rolled over the limit line and did not see that you stopped.

But I know I stopped somewhere slightly in front of the sign, but definitely behind the line.

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It may be a matter of perceptions ... one of you might be mistaken. But, if he was there solely for the purpose of watching for improper stops, it might very well be that his perceptions were more accurate as most of us (as drivers) have a natural tendency to "California stop" through signs. But, this will be for a court to decide.

I drive this road at least twice a day and I know that the CHP does hang out there often, so I would be stupid not to stop.

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People do brain-dead things sometimes when they are tired or distracted. People who have lived in my town all their life still run right through stop signs here without thinking. It happens.

I think that perhaps the officer may not have seen my stop, either he was distracted when I approached or I stopped just out of his view.

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And if you stopped out of his view, you may have stopped too early. Whether the judge will decide that an early (3 or 4 foot) stop is sufficient is a toss up.

He is there often, would it be acceptable to take a photo of him at that spot?

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Sure. But, be careful ... he may wonder why you are taking a picture of him there. Just to be on the safe side, I'd recommend bringing a friend with you so that someone can verify that nothing was done or said between you.

I'd be a little wary if I saw someone taking a photo of me.


- Carl