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Is this even legal?

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caseye

Junior Member
What is the name of your state? Utah
On Thursday I was heading to college, and passed a car. That car followed me to school, and when I got out of my vehicle, the driver asked me if I wanted a ticket for reckless driving. Dressed as a civilian, in a civilian vehicle, not showing a badge, I told him to 'shut-up' and walked away. Two days later, there is a knock on my door, it is the man, in a police uniform. He asks me for my license and registration, and writes me a ticket for speeding, and 'lane weaving'. Is he able to cite me for something that occured while he was off duty, and two days ago? Can I fight it? (He even wrote 'est' for my speed on the ticket) I think I can fight the speeding because he was in his own car, and the accuracy of his spedometer hasn't been verified, but the rest....I have no idea. ThanksWhat is the name of your state?
 


JETX

Senior Member
Is he able to cite me for something that occured while he was off duty, and two days ago?
Yep.

Can I fight it?
Of course you can. Simply show up in court on the scheduled date and time and present your proof that you were NOT in violation.

I think I can fight the speeding because he was in his own car, and the accuracy of his spedometer hasn't been verified
You might be able to challenge the 'est' speed... but unlikely that you can challenge the issue of speeding. How fast WERE you going??

but the rest....I have no idea.
I have an idea... take LOTS of cash to court with you to pay the fines!! :D
 

lwpat

Senior Member
I have an idea... take LOTS of cash to court with you to pay the fines!!
And then go take out a loan to pay for the insurance rate increase. My advice is for you to retain an attorney. The judge is not going to listen to you.
 

caseye

Junior Member
but how is he able to legally state my speed. He was in his personal car with no radar. If you have to prove that your speedometer and radar have been calibrated in a cruiser, isn't his speedometer not legally accurate?
 

JETX

Senior Member
but how is he able to legally state my speed.
He didn't. He did ESTIMATE your speed, which is why he wrote 'est' on the ticket.
So, he may not be able to PROVE you were doing 100 mph... but he can testify that you were in fact traveling faster then the 30 mph posted!!
 

The Occultist

Senior Member
but how is he able to legally state my speed. He was in his personal car with no radar. If you have to prove that your speedometer and radar have been calibrated in a cruiser, isn't his speedometer not legally accurate?
When an officer goes through radar training, they are actually being trained to visually estimate speeds. An officer will first estimate your speed and then confirm it with the radar, meaning they know how fast you were going before they tag you with the radar.

That being said, there is an obvious difference between 30mph and say 50mph that even I can differentiate and I have absolutely no training in this field. The officer may not have an exact speed for how fast you were going but he does know for a fact that you were speeding.
 

tryingtohelp2

Junior Member
Is this legal?

My question here is would be.... is it kegal for the off duty policeman in an unmarked car to issue the ticket 2 days later at the residence and was it legal for the policeman to obtain that address?
 

cepe10

Member
Visual speed estimation is not endorsed by the National Highway Transportation Safety Admin (NHTSA) or other regulatory agencies...

From other courts:
"the opinion of the officer that the defendant was speeding, based upon a visual estimation, without more, is insufficient to sustain a conviction by proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

You can bring the Highway safety deskbook in to show this as well.


The stalking behavior of the police officer is troubling...You may have a valid complaint there and may want to take that up with internal affairs...

IMO, The behavior will not look good for the officer - it shows a vendetta and virilic behavior.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
Is he able to cite me for something that occured while he was off duty, and two days ago?
There are two questions here. The first is can an off-duty officer give a ticket? The answer to that is yes he can. To the second question, can he give a ticket two days hence? Here the question is much harder. On a basic theory, the answer is no. There is a concept in the law called a "stale" misdemeanor. Say a cop sees a person do something wrong, but does not arrest him. Can he wait until it is convient to arrest him? For a misdemeanor, the answer is no he cannot. (Absent any special powers given by statute for the specific factual scenario.) It would not be a violation of constitutional law as all that would be required is probable cause. However, it may very well be a violation of state law. Remember a citation is an arrest where the suspect is released rather than taken into custody.

Now, what effect would this have on the current court case? It doesn't really get to the core of the allegedly criminal conduct of the OP. Just because a citation or arrest on the stale misdemeanor is inappropriate does not mean a judge (or whatever process in Utah) cannot make out an arrest warrant by presenting probable cause to the proper authority and having the OP deal with the charge later. Even so, I don't think it is a defense to the underlying crime to have an invalid arrest, although the current stage of the proceedings may have to be redone as the court would not have proper jurisdiction to hear the case.

I think you will win this one if you fight it on the facts. Then you can consider if you have any damages from the way the ticket was given.
 

caseye

Junior Member
where can I find information about the stale misdemeanor law as it applies to Utah? That sounds to me like an excellent defense.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
It will not be in statutes, but in case law. And, if from what I wrote you believe:
That sounds to me like an excellent defense.
Then you will be unable to gain any value from it. You will need an attorney.

Stale misdemeanor deals with the arrest, not the underlying crime. Therefore, it cannot be a "defense" to anything. It is a jurisdictional issue you will not be able to claim without expert help in your criminal trial. It is the source of a state-only cause of action (false arrest) in some future civil court action.

Your "defense" will be as told by cepe10, the officer cannot make a visual estimate of speed and his personal vehicle is not legally certified for assessing speed.
 
Last edited:

CdwJava

Senior Member
tryingtohelp2 said:
My question here is would be.... is it kegal for the off duty policeman in an unmarked car to issue the ticket 2 days later at the residence and was it legal for the policeman to obtain that address?
Generally, yes.

- Carl
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
cepe10 said:
Visual speed estimation is not endorsed by the National Highway Transportation Safety Admin (NHTSA) or other regulatory agencies...
It does not mean that the courts will not recognize it. Plus, as was mentioned, if he was doing 50 in a 25 or 30, that's pretty bad and having specific training is not necessary.

From other courts:
"the opinion of the officer that the defendant was speeding, based upon a visual estimation, without more, is insufficient to sustain a conviction by proof beyond a reasonable doubt."
Hopefully for the OP the trial will be held in the jurisdiction of these "other courts".

The stalking behavior of the police officer is troubling...You may have a valid complaint there and may want to take that up with internal affairs...
What stalking? Besides the fact that stalking is a criminal act for which the elements have not been established here, the officer would appear to have merely conducted follow-up on the earlier violation.

IMO, The behavior will not look good for the officer - it shows a vendetta and virilic behavior.
Not necessarily. It might be vindictive (though legal). But, it might also have been prompted by a genuine concern for public safety. Without reading the officer's mind, there is no way to say. In any event, unless the OP's state forbids citations to be issued in this manner, then it would still be lawful.

- Carl
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
tranquility said:
To the second question, can he give a ticket two days hence? Here the question is much harder. On a basic theory, the answer is no. There is a concept in the law called a "stale" misdemeanor. Say a cop sees a person do something wrong, but does not arrest him. Can he wait until it is convient to arrest him? For a misdemeanor, the answer is no he cannot.
The question then becomes whether or not the citation is an arrest in the OP's state, or merely a notice to appear in court or some similar charging document. Agencies in CA frequently issue citations for violations that occur as a result of a traffic collision AFTER the incident, as they are issued via mail by an officer certified under state law to write a citation for the PCF in a collision.

How it works in the OP's state is something only his attorney could say.

- Carl
 

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