have question regarding new "iou" invalidating old "iou"

i am in california

i personally drew up a simple paper verifying that i owe a friend 26 thousand dollars. it was a simple paper and stated our names and addys and how much it was, and that i'm making payments on it, and if i die it's to be paid back out of my estate, etc.

i had it notarized (the other party didn't sign any of it, just me) and gave it to her.

i want to redraw the paper up, with a new loan amount, becuase i just found out that she has been using my pin and debit card to make purchases. it does not total anywhere near the 26K, and i don't want to stoop to her level or pull a judge judy "i don't owe her the money anymore cuz she wasn't nice to me", but i want to subtract the money she stole and even add a little for pain and suffering and my overdraft fees, and put a new amount, get it notarized again, and state "this loan paper supercedes and invalidates all previously dated and signed and notarized papers by me regarding this loan" or something like that.

Is this sufficient to invalidate the old paper? ALSO, If i cannot get my hands on the first original one, does it matter if she still HAS the first paper in her possession? i know it would be better if i could find and destroy it, but not sure she is stupid enough to leave it in easy access in her file drawer in her desk where i can come in and get it. she does not know that i know. she thinks that i think it's all a big mystery, doesn't know the extent to which i know what she did.

thanks

near Sac

nearSacramento1 said:

i am in california

i personally drew up a simple paper verifying that i owe a friend 26 thousand dollars. it was a simple paper and stated our names and addys and how much it was, and that i'm making payments on it, and if i die it's to be paid back out of my estate, etc.

i had it notarized (the other party didn't sign any of it, just me) and gave it to her.

i want to redraw the paper up, with a new loan amount, becuase i just found out that she has been using my pin and debit card to make purchases. it does not total anywhere near the 26K, and i don't want to stoop to her level or pull a judge judy "i don't owe her the money anymore cuz she wasn't nice to me", but i want to subtract the money she stole and even add a little for pain and suffering and my overdraft fees, and put a new amount, get it notarized again, and state "this loan paper supercedes and invalidates all previously dated and signed and notarized papers by me regarding this loan" or something like that.

Is this sufficient to invalidate the old paper? ALSO, If i cannot get my hands on the first original one, does it matter if she still HAS the first paper in her possession? i know it would be better if i could find and destroy it, but not sure she is stupid enough to leave it in easy access in her file drawer in her desk where i can come in and get it. she does not know that i know. she thinks that i think it's all a big mystery, doesn't know the extent to which i know what she did.

thanks

near Sac

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Your both being sleazy , it sounds like to me .

Why ?

Because according to you , she committed fraud , and all you want to do is sneak around and steal the promissory note .

Makes one wonder why such a note for that amount of money , and what it was used for .

We don't help people break the Laws .

Take it to Judge Judy ..

SIGH ok let me rephrase

does a second notarized document invalidate or have any legal bearing over the first? in other words, if i make a new one, a newpromissory note, with a LOWER amount on it, and state that it supercedes the old one or some such wording that perhaps you can help me not sound sleazy with, would this hold up in any court? i mean could she come in with the original one with thehigher amount and they would find that no in fact i do owe the original amount? i mean, couldn't ANYONE just for any reason lower their own promissory note if they felt like it? but of course then i would have to prove WHY i owe a lower amount, and that is the whole big ball of wax. i can prove it, of course. maybe she is betting on thefact that i cannot.

or i just take the whole thing to the police. thing is, i owe her lotsa money. she now, due to her theft, owes me some money. i thought we could make it simple and just deduct what she stole from my total. of course that is assuming she accepts it. she could just come in and say i am full of "poop" and they'll take ME to court for the entire 26 k.

ok so i don't "steal" the original one. maybe she'll give it back to me! dunno!

please answer my question as posed above because there is nothing illegal about it.

FYI she helped me buy a car with part of her equity line. nothing sleazy about that. she has been very generous with me and my daughter and i'm now realizing it's to try to clean her karma from her stealing from my with my debit card.

steph

and ps...sleazy would be to destroy the original one and act like i do not owe her one penny. i was trying to be cool about it.

nearSacramento1 said:

SIGH ok let me rephrase

does a second notarized document invalidate or have any legal bearing over the first? in other words, if i make a new one, a newpromissory note, with a LOWER amount on it, and state that it supercedes the old one or some such wording that perhaps you can help me not sound sleazy with, would this hold up in any court? i mean could she come in with the original one with thehigher amount and they would find that no in fact i do owe the original amount? i mean, couldn't ANYONE just for any reason lower their own promissory note if they felt like it? but of course then i would have to prove WHY i owe a lower amount, and that is the whole big ball of wax. i can prove it, of course. maybe she is betting on thefact that i cannot.

or i just take the whole thing to the police. thing is, i owe her lotsa money. she now, due to her theft, owes me some money. i thought we could make it simple and just deduct what she stole from my total. of course that is assuming she accepts it. she could just come in and say i am full of "poop" and they'll take ME to court for the entire 26 k.

ok so i don't "steal" the original one. maybe she'll give it back to me! dunno!

please answer my question as posed above because there is nothing illegal about it.

FYI she helped me buy a car with part of her equity line. nothing sleazy about that. she has been very generous with me and my daughter and i'm now realizing it's to try to clean her karma from her stealing from my with my debit card.

steph

and ps...sleazy would be to destroy the original one and act like i do not owe her one penny. i was trying to be cool about it.

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I'm going to quit typing now for a moment while I write a promissory note that YOU owe me $2600.00 grand , could I ?

Sure I could , but It won't be worth nothing but looking at .

Ok , now like I said , go tell it all to Judge Judy .

that does not make any sense. if my FRIEND wrote the p note that iowed her that money and SHE signed it and had it notarized, that is goofy. I am the one who owes it so therefore if I sign and notarize that, then isn't that a legal doc that would hold up in court that i do owe someone a sum?

You wouldnt write and sign a note that someone ELSE owes you.

steph

nearSacramento1 said:

that does not make any sense. if my FRIEND wrote the p note that iowed her that money and SHE signed it and had it notarized, that is goofy. I am the one who owes it so therefore if I sign and notarize that, then isn't that a legal doc that would hold up in court that i do owe someone a sum?

You wouldnt write and sign a note that someone ELSE owes you.

steph

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I'm subscribing to your ridiculous rant thread now .

You can not sign a subsequent note that says you own a different amount to someone else , and it be legal .

Bye Bye ..

I am not sure why you are so vicious and snide. This is called the Free Advice forum, not the Ask A Question And Get Trashed forum. I needed some advice, not to be told in a roundabout way that I'm a sleazy idiot.

I am guilty of being too trusting and not vigilant enough of my bank statements, not skirting the edges of legality and lurking around in the shadowlands of decency. I am just trying to figure out how to still pay what I do owe and not pay what I dont' owe, and Covering My As* in the process so that I don't get gyped again.

If someone else would like to add to these responses, it would be appreciated. Let me ask more clearly: IS THERE A WAY for me to invalidate the FIRST notarized IOU with a second IOU or am I legally stuck with the first one, as any attempts by me to correct the sum will be seen as fraudulent and/or "trying to get out of paying what I owe?"

I am in no way, shape, or form a lawyer or paralegal or anything of the sort (actually I own a retail webshop) and am asking this question because I need some Free Advice on the "Law Forums"

Thanks!

near Sac

OP – you need what is called a “novation”, and no it can’t be done under the radar. Contract rules apply. If you can prove that she did what you assert, your friend has committed multiple crimes. You’re going to have to confront her and get this situation straightened out informally, with a new and correct note, or file a criminal complaint and have her charged. Let a court order the existing promissory note rescinded. The following is a link to CA Civil Code sect 1530 - 1543, which pertains to novation and release. You have a problem, but I doubt that you’ll get more sympathy until you step up to the plate:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

(And, at the time of this posting, the whole site is down. Maybe Arnold is trying to cut the budget too fast.)

An IOU is a promise to pay a certain sum. It does not describe the reason for the need to pay, only the amount. It needs to be signed by the party it is to be enforced against. Since the underlying reason for the debt is not important, you cannot have a claim that the thing you bought went bad, the money was less than you thought or other reason. The amount is liquidated in the note.

You owe the other person what was written in the note. Period. Nothing will change that. (Nothing except fraud in the creation.) If there is a seperate problem, even if it involves something which underlies the reason for the note in the first place, you have to deal with the problem seperately.

You see, the other person could sell or give the note to another and you would still be liable for the full amount. The other person does not need to do any research into the nature of the note to make it collectible.

So, no. You cannot issue a superseeding note unless you can get the prior one back.

I'd like to see the OP try this...and then deal with the fact that he has TWO valid IOU's floating around out there

i dont' want to do anything illegal, but i DO want to know exactly where i stand before i confront her. she is VERY smart and VERY commanding.

nearSac

nearSacramento1 said:

i dont' want to do anything illegal, but i DO want to know exactly where i stand before i confront her. she is VERY smart and VERY commanding.

nearSac

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If SHE agrees to changing the terms of the original IOU, then all is good. Otherwise, whatever restrictions you place on the new IOU wouldn't affect the validity of the original IOU.

ok. thanks for the clarity.

so, given the fact that no repayment terms are spelled out in the original iou, it just says "i am making payments on this debt" would it be illegal of me, or could she sue me to recover the entire sum, if i tell her that i will continue to make payments on the loan but at an amount of my choosing?

yes i guess it sounds like i am threatening her ,but i want to make sure that I pursue each LEGAL avenue with her before actually going ahead and filing criminal charges. at this point i am not sure what she is capable of!!!

i also need to make sure that i have a leg to stand on with regard to filing criminal charges since i DID give her my pin in the past (I know hers too) and HANDED her my card to use for gas or when we were at walmart together (i would sometimes pay for her purchase since i owed her a little money - we always swapped paying for meals, gas, etc. that is how close we were.) but she always handed it back. however i cannot PROVE that she didn't ever call me or ask me permission to take my card, keep it, use it, use my pin, and even use it when i was not present. she could say "she said i could do that, she owes us lots of money" and what am i to do. it sounds ridiculous and outside the realm of reality, of course, given how much she spent, but she could still say it or THINK she's goign to say it if it goes all the way to court! i am very guilty of not keeping tabs on my online statements, i would see walmart walmart winco winco and not think twice about it since even i do go there a lot. so she could say "look she gave me her card back a while ago and is just NOW calling it fraud??? why didn't she discover this a while ago?"

i am one of those people that likes to play out as many scenarios as possible before acting. she may have her defense for the whole thing all planned out.

**update** i just did a search for "if you give out your PIN" and found one bank's verbage that says if you do give out your PIN, then that is permission for them to use it any ole time. so i guess i am screwed. unless i just say that i did not give it to her. she can't prove i did. she could have looked over my shoulder. but again, that is lying, and it does look strange that i never noticed it for awhile. shame shame shame shame on me.

i guess my only recourse is either to A. say i didn't give it to her or B. if it's legal for me to pay back the 26k but at a monthly payment of MY choosing, wihtout getting the original IOU back and doing a novation, and she cannot just up and sue me for the whole sum whneever she feels like it, then I'll just do that.

gosh this is fun. i have a pit in my stomach. my daughter just lost her auntie. live and learn i guess.

thank you very much for your constructive advice!

nearSac

A court could determine the note's terms based on what is reasonable, possibly decided on prior actions. The bank's admonitions about the PIN has to do with their liability to you and not another's liability to you. For example, I am a signatory on many trust accounts even though I am not the trustee. (I am employed by the trustee.) I can write checks on those accounts and the bank has no liabliity to the trust if they pay them--even if I wrote them to myself. If I were to use that ability to defraud the trust, the trustee could criminally and civilly go after me.

the bank website did not make that clear. it was a page on "how to safeguard your account" type of thing. they were giving examples of kinds of fraud where people try to get you to give out your pin. they state that if you give it to someone then that is considered consent for them to use it. not sure in a court if that is the end of the story or theyconsider what is "reasonable" like you said. reasonably, i gave it to her while we were together shopping and getting gas, so she could punch it into the gas pump or at the walmart checkout, when she specifically asked if i could do the purchase for her, and it would come off the amount i owed. NOT reasonably, she just used it whenever she wanted. again though, she can use the argument that i had given it to her in thefirst place and just told her to keep on using it since i DID owe her the large sum of money. not sure who the judge would side with. i definitely look like the dimwit for not noticing or catching it for so long.

so not sure.
nearSac