Red Light at Intersection in Virginia

What is the name of your state? Virginia

I have a question regarding a moving violation I received on Saturday evening, at a large suburban (multi lane) intersection during this past Memorial Day Weekend in Fairfax County Virginia. The violation as recorded was 82-1-6(46.2-833) and the charge described as "Disregard Red Light."

I was making a left hand turn just as my traffic light turned yellow. According to the officer who witnessed the alleged offence, it was not possible that my light was yellow since he said his light was already green when I was passing through the intersection. In addition, he cited the obvious: that a yellow light is a warning and that I should have stopped.

The officer proceeded to document the offense and stated that I can waive the trial and prepay the fine, costs, fees, etc. There is no dollar amount cited, and when I call the number on the document, the prerecorded message tells me to wait another couple of weeks until the violation has been entered in the system.

Needless to say, I am very upset. With over 22 years of a clean driving record, I have been cited for running a red traffic light, or as described on the ticket "Disregard Red Light." I find this incredibly humiliating and embarrassing. I realize it's my word against the officer, and unless the officer fails to appear in court, it is unlikely I would win.

The dollar amount of the fine doesn't bother me (even though I still do not know exactly what that fine might be) and while I do not cherish getting points on an otherwise clean driving record, what frustrates me most is knowing I "ran" a yellow light and I am being wrongfully accused of something else, more serious.

In hindsight, I suspect what happened is I entered the intersection at the last possible moment just as the light turned yellow. I had just turned out of a shopping center parking lot onto the main thoroughfare, and since I was turning left at the intersection, I slowed down to make the left hand turn and turn into my lane. I suspect by the time I turned into my lane, the traffic light for the officer had in fact turned green, and he suspected I ran a red light. Bad timing, and bad luck for me...

Aside from the officer not showing up at court, based on a clean driving record, what are my chances of winning, or at least keeping my driving record clean? Since I've never received a ticket, I don’t know what I'm up against. As I mentioned, in some respects it's not about the money: it's the principle; what is right is right, and what is wrong is WRONG. But at the same token, others have said that sometimes it's better, i.e. easier to pay the fine and avoid the hassles of traffic court, and possible extra fines and charges.

After thinking about this for the last couple of days, and having read previous posts on this site, I would like to point out what I consider to be an irony in all this: had I run a red (yellow) light in presence of a traffic light camera, all I would have been faced with would have been a $50 fine. No points. Cheaper fine. Done deal.

Where is the justice in all of this? Right now, I have been wrongfully accused. Should I fight this or accept the charge?!

The law says if you haven't entered the intersection when the light turns yellow that you shall stop if not reasonably safe to continue. This is meant to include not being able to clear the intersection before the light turns red.

If you have a clean record, one option would be to ask for traffic school You can do it online if you are over 20. You case will be continued for a certain period. If you complete the traffic school, the charge will be dismissed.

For most states who follow the MUTCD guidelines the law for running running a red light states that you my not cross the stop line which is the white line painted across the beginning of the intersection. even if the light is yellow you can still proceed but once it is red the front of your car can not cross over the white line. Now if you are in the intersection when it turns red this is not running the red light. If the light complies with the MUTCD which it should, all lights stay red for a period of time to let traffic who entered on yellow to clear. Now if the light does not have an all red condition and the opposing traffic get a green right away that would explain why he saw you in the intersection when his light was green.

The problem is VA does not follow this, their law say you can not enter on yellow if you think it not reasonable, which is clear as mud and subjective, it may have been reasonable to one person and not for another. This rule is not clear and is left to the officer's digression, even if the light was not operating properly

Now you could be guilt of not clearing or blocking the intersection which is different offense then running a red light.

Thank You!

Thank you all for your input. It's amazing how "alone" one can feel when something like this happens.

Part of my "problem" in general is I tend to drive slow. Normally when other cars tend to speed-up to "run" a yellow light, I maintain my speed. My wife on many of an occasion has scolded me for not hitting the pedal harder/faster to clear an intersection. (My argument has been: what should I do, break one law in order to pacify another?)

For that matter, my wife was in the car with me when I was pulled over. My understanding has been since Driver's Education school to remain calm and respectful of the officer. I realize that as a spouse, my wife's word as a witness does not count on my behalf. Since my wife is more outspoken than I am, I think she is more outraged than I am by this incident.

Over the years, I have taught many how to drive, as well as what the various laws are regarding motor vehicle operation. Therefore, the charge I "ran a red light" is extremely demeaning. I was relaxed and heading home; I had just made a purchase at Wal-Mart and was in no rush whatsoever.

Again, for me it's the principle: I was not in even in the slightest of a hurry to go anywhere. Perhaps that was my problem? I was "caught" in the transition of the traffic light from going yellow to red. Being used to driving in the more urban confines of Washington DC streets, perhaps the suburban scale threw me off? I don't know.

I have the luxury of access to a lawyer who should be able to provide counsel. I do not blame the officer for his judgment; I simply question the difference of what he thinks he saw...and what actually happened.

If you are willing to go to court, you may be able to get out of the ticket. In order to be found guilty, the officer has to testify that he observed that your light was red, not that his light was green. He also has to testify that he observed your vehicle entering the intersection after your light turned red, or that it was not safe to enter the intersection after your light turned yellow. You will need to be prepared with pictures of the intersection showing that it was not possible for the officer to see the color of your light from his vantage point.

Sorry MW, it doesn't work that way. See the previous replies. Further, if the signal is such that green for the officer and red/yellow for the offender were normal operation, it would take compelling testimony (and based on what the OP says perjury) that the light was malfunctioning. The statute for traffic signals does not work the way you assume as we've already pointed out.

The original poster should go to court. He can actually make his case, hope the cop doesn't show, or whatever, and still ask for the traffic school option (even if the judge would find him guilty). The other option is to prepay the ticket admitting guilt, if that option becomes available to him.

Driving School

Once again, thank you for your input. As I mentioned before, if I had received a ticket for some other moving violation (such as speeding, not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, or similar) then I would not be frustrated with the officer, but myself instead. With this situation, I feel like I've been victimized! But that is neither "here nor there" as far as resolving my current problem. I already sense a chorus of anyone reading this post thinking, "get over it"!!!

As far as asking for the traffic school option, I'm assuming that is an option I must seek before a judge, correct? Are you certain the traffic school option is an available possibility in Virginia?

I realize by saying this, anyone else who might read my following statement might think I'm some sort of Pollyanna or nut-case, but in general I would prefer to do the traffic school option, since one of my personal beefs has always been people either seem to forget or ignore basic driving skills. (For example, how many times have you ever arrived at an intersection with a four-way stop and no one seems to understand the basic concept of right-of-way?!) So I've always advocated drivers (maybe) should be required to sit through a basic driving course at least one every ten or so years. (And having driven for over 22 years, with my original driving instruction having taken place about a quarter of a century ago -- maybe it is time for a refresher!?) Although in my case, the need to sit through a driving education class -- to learn that one needs to stop at a red light -- is kind of silly. But, if need be, I'll do it...

As far as me going to court and hoping the police offer doesn't show, what are the chances of that happening? Are there any known ways to "encourage" an officer not to arrive in court? The violation cites a specific court date and time. It also says that prepay is applicable up to two days before the court date. So if I decide to pay the fine two days before the court date, does the officer get notification NOT to appear in court? (That would seem to be a pretty integrated and advanced system if that were the case; especially since I still don't know what the actual fine is, some five days later, they still haven't entered the data from the citation.) Or do the police "bundle" cases, where the officer is already scheduled to appear in court on that day for other probable violations that he handed out the day I received mine?

Finally, any suggestions on how I can actually view my driving record? Is there a pseudo "credit report" type of source where I can obtain my record? While I know I've never had a DWI, moving violation, or other altercation with the law, I'd still like to make certain; the last thing I want to do is go before a judge telling him/her that here I am, a perfect driver...only to be scolded for some traffic violation that I either forgot about, or something that never happened!

Again, thank you all!

FlyingRon said:

Sorry MW, it doesn't work that way. See the previous replies. Further, if the signal is such that green for the officer and red/yellow for the offender were normal operation, it would take compelling testimony (and based on what the OP says perjury) that the light was malfunctioning. The statute for traffic signals does not work the way you assume as we've already pointed out.

The original poster should go to court. He can actually make his case, hope the cop doesn't show, or whatever, and still ask for the traffic school option (even if the judge would find him guilty). The other option is to prepay the ticket admitting guilt, if that option becomes available to him.

Click to expand...

Hmmm...then why did it work for me several years ago? Everybody officer that I know has told me that they cannot cite for a red light violation unless they have a clear view of the traffic light and the intersection. Take away one element and the citation is just a waste of everybody's time.

The OP would not have to perjure himself, only get the officer admit that it was possible for the traffic light to be green or yellow and that the OP was able to safely travel through the intersection.

The argument was that he wasn't safely through the intersection if it turned green for opposing traffic before he made it through.

You can try it, but it won't wash in Loudoun, and suspect it won't in Fairfax.
But he's got nothing to lose contesting it and if he wants driver school he has to go to court anyhow.

The only thing that tilts things is if he shows up with a lawyer. At that point the commonwealth's attorney gets involved rather than it being a cop vs. driver issue.

Eric_Virginia said:

Once again, thank you for your input. As I mentioned before, if I had received a ticket for some other moving violation (such as speeding, not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, or similar) then I would not be frustrated with the officer, but myself instead. With this situation, I feel like I've been victimized! But that is neither "here nor there" as far as resolving my current problem. I already sense a chorus of anyone reading this post thinking, "get over it"!!!

As far as asking for the traffic school option, I'm assuming that is an option I must seek before a judge, correct? Are you certain the traffic school option is an available possibility in Virginia?

I realize by saying this, anyone else who might read my following statement might think I'm some sort of Pollyanna or nut-case, but in general I would prefer to do the traffic school option, since one of my personal beefs has always been people either seem to forget or ignore basic driving skills. (For example, how many times have you ever arrived at an intersection with a four-way stop and no one seems to understand the basic concept of right-of-way?!) So I've always advocated drivers (maybe) should be required to sit through a basic driving course at least one every ten or so years. (And having driven for over 22 years, with my original driving instruction having taken place about a quarter of a century ago -- maybe it is time for a refresher!?) Although in my case, the need to sit through a driving education class -- to learn that one needs to stop at a red light -- is kind of silly. But, if need be, I'll do it...

As far as me going to court and hoping the police offer doesn't show, what are the chances of that happening? Are there any known ways to "encourage" an officer not to arrive in court? The violation cites a specific court date and time. It also says that prepay is applicable up to two days before the court date. So if I decide to pay the fine two days before the court date, does the officer get notification NOT to appear in court? (That would seem to be a pretty integrated and advanced system if that were the case; especially since I still don't know what the actual fine is, some five days later, they still haven't entered the data from the citation.) Or do the police "bundle" cases, where the officer is already scheduled to appear in court on that day for other probable violations that he handed out the day I received mine?

Finally, any suggestions on how I can actually view my driving record? Is there a pseudo "credit report" type of source where I can obtain my record? While I know I've never had a DWI, moving violation, or other altercation with the law, I'd still like to make certain; the last thing I want to do is go before a judge telling him/her that here I am, a perfect driver...only to be scolded for some traffic violation that I either forgot about, or something that never happened!

Again, thank you all!

Click to expand...

Traffic school would likely be an option that you could ask about in court. IIRC, you would be eligible for an online course to take away some of the boredom of an actual all-day classroom setting.

It is very doubtful that the officer will fail to show up. He is paid to be there and the case would likely be continued if he doesn't show.

You can get a copy of your driving record from DMV. There is a small fee...IIRC, it is less than $10.

Follow-up to an earlier question

Quick question to my earlier posts regarding a ticket I received for allegedly running a red light...

I spoke to a lawyer. He cited the judge will probably not significantly lessen the fine, and that by going for the traffic school option, the points would still go on my driving record. I checked with another lawyer, and he pretty much reported the same, even if I have a clean driving record.

When I called the police department to verify the dollar amount of the fine, I discovered the police department has entered my first and last name incorrectly into their database. Where my name includes the letter "k" they've entered as an "h" (two instances) as well as omitted another letter completely, and inserted another letter not found in my name at all...

The error appears to be on part of whomever entered the ticket information into the database, since the ticket information is evident to me (although easy for me to say, since I recognize my name).

So, what do I do?

What are the better chances: do I go to court, and see if this error has any bearing? Or, do I simply pay the fine, and take the wait and see attitude. If the database has nearly a third of my name misspelled, maybe my insurance company won't find out? Or will they...since the citation is tagged to an address?

While I'm still angry about this ticket (I didn't run a red light) I know I have no grounds to fight the officer (he represents the law) I'm now faced with going to court, wasting hours of time, only to find I still have to pay the fine, and whatever extra court fees (and with my luck, have them call my name...and end up ignoring it because I don't what they've entered into the system) and end up in more trouble for "failure to show in court" or similar.

The error does not prevent you from presenting a valid defense to the citation and is not cause for dismissal.

I don't know what idiot lawyers you were talking to, but what you were told is not the case.

There are two issues:

1. Anybody can go to traffic school to "subtract" points. In this case the charges are on your record (and the insurance company hears about it) ,but your "point total" that the state uses to think about suspending your license gets reduced.

2. You can ask, if your record is clean, to have the case continued (and dismissed) provided that you complete the traffic school. In this case there are NO POINTS added to your record and the insurance company never sees a conviction because there isn't one.