Shoplifting and Palmer, Reifler & Assoc.

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

My 14 year-old son and his friend thought it a good idea to steal a set of headphones from our local KMart. They were caught, thank goodness, and we were called. We went down and signed the form acknowledging the $10 theft and that we would have to pay restitution on it. We tried to pay, but were informed they don't do it that way and we would receive something in the mail from their law firm, Palmer, Reifler & Assoc. They told my son's friend that he could go and they would not press charges against either kid.

We have not received anything, yet, from the law firm regarding restitution. However, we just found out that they've been hounding the other kid and want him to pay $750. Apparently he's received 2 letters from them. They went to KMart to try to straighten it out as they assumed that they submitted their son's name for resitution instead of our son's name. KMart told them it was out of their hands and there was nothing they could do about it. They suggested, however, we call the law firm and find out how much we owe, too, since we were probably accruing fees as well and just didn't know it. Even though we've not received anything.

Does this sound right to anyone? Anybody dealt with this situation? I did a search of the law firm and see all the complaints about extortion tactics and outrageous fees charged after promises of "just sign here, pay for the item and you're all good." I like the form we had to sign stating that we were releasing them from any liability and wouldn't sue them in exchange for their generous consideration of leniency with consequences for our kids. Is this the generous part?

So, my bottom line question is: should I contact this firm and have them search for a claim against our son? Do I assume we got "missed" somehow and ignore it? I'm all for paying our due, but I hate being taken advantage of. And while I know it's not our fault, I feel terrible the other kid is getting the brunt of the trouble since they were both in it. My son was the one with the goods, but they were both getting the job done. I'm glad they got caught because I think it would've been worse if they got away with it, but I hate thinking they're sticking to people like us, too. Of course, our son has not been in any trouble before this that we know of.

Thanks for any advice you all can offer.

The merchant or their representative can request a civil assessment of up to $500 as compensation. Typically, this value is about $300. The amount your son's friend is being asked to pay - the $750 - is likely because they ignored the previous notice and it has gone to collections. This is pure speculation on my part and there may be another explanation, but since the max. is $500, I find it difficult to otherwise explain the $750 request.

Consider yourself lucky if you have not yet received a request for payment. The onus is upon them to make contact, so hopefully the store had your correct address and information. And, hopefully, no one threw out the notice in the mail!

- Carl

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your response. You're right, the other kid has received 3 notices so far, and they ignored the first two. My husband had the presence of mind to request copies of all the paperwork they were making us sign so we know they have our correct address. I did worry that we may have accidentally missed the notice, but I'm highly doubtful we missed 3 of them. Our mail goes to a P.O. box so no worries about teenager pilfering the mail before we get it.

Your note eases my worries a bit about whether to contact them or not. I think I will wait further and watch the mail.

Thanks so much for your time.
~racingponiesca

DO NOT PAY THESE PEOPLE!

My daughter went through the same thing. She made a mistake, used bad judgment and got caught shoplifting from Home Depot where she was employed.

She cooperated fully with Home Depot. She hired a lawyer, went to court and not only paid the store back for the merchandise, but paid all court costs, lawyer fees and did a summer worth of community service.

Then, months later we get one of these letters from Palmer, Reifler and Associates requesting an additional $1775.

We contacted her lawyer and what he told us was that this company is nothing more than a glorified debt collection agency and in no way had anything to do with the case against her that went to court. He said that them using the term "Law Offices" in their letterhead was quite a stretch. He also told us that for you to have to pay something like this, it has to come from a judgment made in a court of law; not just some random made up amount.

He said this is an intimidation tactic. They hope to scare you into paying the amount in the letter out of fear without question; which must work, because they have built a rather large business doing it.

If they really are going to sue you, let them sue you in a court of law where you can use your constitutional given right to defend yourself. Criminal AND civil judgments both must be decided in a court of law.

rkindigo said:

DO NOT PAY THESE PEOPLE!

My daughter went through the same thing. She made a mistake, used bad judgment and got caught shoplifting from Home Depot where she was employed.

She cooperated fully with Home Depot. She hired a lawyer, went to court and not only paid the store back for the merchandise, but paid all court costs, lawyer fees and did a summer worth of community service.

Then, months later we get one of these letters from Palmer, Reifler and Associates requesting an additional $1775.

We contacted her lawyer and what he told us was that this company is nothing more than a glorified debt collection agency and in no way had anything to do with the case against her that went to court. He said that them using the term "Law Offices" in their letterhead was quite a stretch. He also told us that for you to have to pay something like this, it has to come from a judgment made in a court of law; not just some random made up amount.

He said this is an intimidation tactic. They hope to scare you into paying the amount in the letter out of fear without question; which must work, because they have built a rather large business doing it.

If they really are going to sue you, let them sue you in a court of law where you can use your constitutional given right to defend yourself. Criminal AND civil judgments both must be decided in a court of law.

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Since they signed paperwork which most likely states that they acknowledge that their child was caught stealing and there is no disputing that fact and therefore agree to pay the civil assessment that will be imposed, in exchange for not pressing criminal charges, they are probably obligated to pay the fee if they do in fact receive a bill for it. Of course as Carl posted, it shouldn't be more than the $500.00 limit, but they would be on the hook for that much if requested.

I don't know if they can charge two separate parties that much, since there was only one item being taken. Possibly Carl will know?

However, what I think would be the right thing to do, is for your son to split the bill with the other boy, if the other party is the only one receiving this charge. They were both in on the heist, so it is only fair that they are each in on the monetary punishment as well.

So I guess the question is, can this collection agency charge the $500.00 maximum fee to both boys for the one item? What do you think Carl?

This is not a legitimate claim.

Read up on this class action lawsuit against Palmer.

"Filed in federal court in Miami, the suit accuses Orlando-based Palmer, Reifler & Associates of harassing and intimidating suspected shoplifters into paying large penalties, even if they have not been convicted of a crime."

"In court filings, lawyers for the Pennsylvania woman have asked a judge to shut down much of Palmer, Reifler's operations and to force the firm and its partners to repay "the tens of millions of dollars they have extorted for themselves and their retail clients."

"The firm employs aggressive tactics, sending letters and making phone calls that threaten possible lawsuits and seek escalating penalties. A partner in the firm has estimated that Palmer, Reifler sends 80,000 to 120,000 letters each month."

"The suit alleges that Palmer, Reifler's tactics constitute mail fraud and racketeering. "We look forward to the allegations being addressed by the court," said Alison Harke, a Miami lawyer representing Kelly."

You can read more here.

Kelly v. Palmer, Reifler & Associates, P.A. :: Justia News


DO NOT PAY THESE PEOPLE. YOU HAVE RIGHTS not to have money extorted from you illegally. They take very few case to court out of hundreds of thousands of letters sent each year. This is a scam. Home Depot took my daughter to court and she paid civil and criminal penalties already and still got a letter.

It appears to be the responsibility of the group to pay the full amount ... however, if you consider each act as separate offenses, then this might change.

The parent or legal guardian having control or custody of an
unemancipated minor whose conduct violates this subdivision shall be
jointly and severally liable with the minor to a merchant or to a
library facility for damages of not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor
more than five hundred dollars ($500), plus costs.
​

The civil assessment is provided by statute, and refusal to pay can - and almost certainly will - still result in a loss at a civil trial if the company pursues it. Further, the plaintiff may be allowed fees for failure to pay and they can still turn the case over to the state for prosecution if a person fails to pay ... it is rare that the cases are turned over for prosecution in such a situation, but I am told it happens.

- Carl

All I am saying is that Palmer, Reifler and Associates is involved in practices that may not be completely legal. There is a potential class action lawsuit against them. Do some research before you agree to pay them anything.

rkindigo said:

All I am saying is that Palmer, Reifler and Associates is involved in practices that may not be completely legal. There is a potential class action lawsuit against them. Do some research before you agree to pay them anything.

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Since anyone can sue anyone else for anything, the fact that there might be a pending suit against them does not imply they did anything wrong. From what you posted on your other link, I fail to see that they did anything overtly unlawful. One can argue that the tactics could be considered heavy handed, but whether they are unlawful or not would seem to be very much in doubt.

As I tell people who ask, ignore the payment at your own risk. Failing to pay $350 now could result in a much more expensive pay out later ... and, possibly, criminal charges where none had previously been forthcoming. But, everyone can make their own call. I guess I just don't like gambling with that kind of money.

- Carl

rkindigo said:

All I am saying is that Palmer, Reifler and Associates is involved in practices that may not be completely legal. There is a potential class action lawsuit against them. Do some research before you agree to pay them anything.

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It may be that this collection company goes overboard and possibly even operates outside of the law. However, this civil assessment or penalty is something that merchants are legally permitted to charge when they catch someone shoplifting.

The reason is that stores pay out considerable money to try to prevent merchandise from walking out the door without being paid for.
Loss prevention is very expensive, they pay for everything from store detectives, to cameras and video monitoring equipment, to special locked cabinets to display merchandise to the tag detection modules you walk through on your way out of the store etc. etc. For years, the cost of these preventative measures was passed on to the consumer. All their customers paid with higher prices on merchandise.

This civil assessment is meant to have the people who do the shoplifting pay for their illegal conduct rather than the paying customers. I for one applaud this law because it keeps the prices a little lower for people like myself, who actually pay for everything before leaving the store.

So what I'm saying is that you may be correct in your opinion of this collection agency or legal firm or whatever the hell they call themselves being a shady company. However it does not translate to the civil charges that are in accordance with California law, being unjustified or frivolous.

So you should use caution when you advise people not to pay this charge as it can end up costing them much more in the future.

What I am saying is do some research before just shelling out money to this company. I do not condone shoplifting. By no means. But a large percentage of these letters go out to people that WERE NOT convicted for shoplifting.

In fact, in one case a man was detained because they thought he tried to steal drill bits from a Home Depot. It turned out he was a contractor and he was on a job and the bits belonged to him. He was let go with no charges and later received a letter demanding $5000. This is a large percentage of the people that receive these letters. In my daughter's case, she paid her criminal and civil penalties. She had her day in court and now is being intimidated for even more money. If she were to pay this, where would it end. Can they come after her again?

This company sends out 1.2 million of these letters a year. They actually take less than 10 cases to court every year. That is 10 in 1.2 million. They hope that you will just pay them and cost them nothing more than the price of a sheet of paper, ink and postage. They then take up to 30% of the money collected.

The class action law suit against them says:

"The suit alleges that Palmer, Reifler's tactics constitute mail fraud and racketeering. "We look forward to the allegations being addressed by the court," said Alison Harke, a Miami lawyer."

In this country you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. These things need to be settled in court. Not in a process that walks a fine line between a legitimate legal practice and extortion.

Don’t be too quick to judge. This could happen to you. All you need to do is be detained by one of these stores. Even if you did nothing wrong, they will give your name to Palmer and you will be getting the same type of letter. Are you just going to blindly pay them???

First, $5,000 is well beyond the statutory amounts of any state with regards to civil demands. Either that letter included collections or was part of a judgment, or there was a typo, or there was some funny business. We don't know.

Second, you can choose to ignore these matters if you wish. Like many things in life, it's a gamble. Ignore the claim and risk a more expensive civil suit or criminal prosecution. If you feel lucky, go for it. Personally, if one of my kids got caught shoplifting and was forced to pay this restitution, yes, we'd pay it ... then he'd work it off in spades.

- Carl

I am not just ignoring this. We contacted a lawyer and I have tried calling them. We are working on the advice of our lawyer who has dealt with them before. He said they take less than 10 out of 1.2 millions cases to court each year and that we are only responsible for money that was part of a judgement made in court.

They are not in the business of admitting wrong doing or working with you. You can call them all you want. I have tried. They are just going to persue as many of these as possible and collect as much as they can with very little effort.

My daughter had her day in court and paid for what she did. It took her a summer of two jobs while going to school and performing a summer worth of community service.

That $5000 was $3000, I made a mistke. His case did go to court, but he proved that he owned the drill bits and the case was dropped. I would put a link to the information about the case, but I was warned about adding links and had a couple posts taken down because of it.

So, this is from the Wall Street Journal on the case:

"In the Home Depot case, Mr. Rudge, the handyman, had a set of drill bits poking out of his shirt pocket when he went through the checkout line at a Miami store in December 2002, according to a suit he later filed against Home Depot. After he paid $66 for his purchases, a security guard stopped him on his way out and asked him about the drill bits...Prosecutors charged the handyman with shoplifting, then dropped the charge in February 2003 when he showed them a receipt for the drill bits. But about a month later, according to his suit, he got a letter from the Palmer Reifler law firm demanding he pay a little over $3,000 within 20 days."

What is the statutory limit? He was ordered to pay over $3000, my daughter is being ordered to pay $1775. She has already paid over $2000 in fines and lawyer fees.

Like I said. I do not condone breaking the law. But this firms practices are very shady and this could happen to anyone, regardless of whether you were actually shoplifting or not.

Rinkydink - please keep your rantings in your own thread. You may think you're making a point when you're actually coming across as an uninformed raving lunatic who is going to get other people in legal trouble if they listen to your ramblings.

Country Living said:

Rinkydink - please keep your rantings in your own thread. You may think you're making a point when you're actually coming across as an uninformed raving lunatic who is going to get other people in legal trouble if they listen to your ramblings.

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Cosigned! rkindigo is just digging the hole deeper and deeper for his daughter, increasing the amounts she is going to have to pay. If he were a decent parent, he'd want her to take responsibility for her crimes, both criminally and civilly.