• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

Not honoring the POA

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

POAPOW

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
I live in GA. My father retired from a large co in NY. He and my mother moved to GA. Mother has Alzheimers. Dad passed away two years ago. I have the POA for both of them. I am the Executor of their estate and I am the person who pays all my mothers expenses (out of their trust fund) . For two years I have been sending copies of the POA, death cert and medical dr confirmation that my mother is incapacitated to the company. They continue to refuse to pay out the remainder of my fathers retirement fund. They acknowledge the $ is there and is owed to my fathers estate. At first they said they never rec'd the documents ( I've sent them 3+ times and have the documentation to prove it) and now after two reviews by their Erissa Attorney they are saying that the POA I have is not sufficient. I have only had this one POA and have been able to do everything else for the estate including sell their house and manage their other assetts. The Co says I need a NEW POA that specifically references the reitrement plan. Is this normal?

As I stated earlier my mother is completely incapacitated so there is no way for her to sign it. I am at a complete loss. ANy suggestions?
 


SIN EATER

Member
Is the money owed to your mother, or to your father's estate ?

Some institutions refuse to honor a POA. In most states, there is no consequence to them for not honoring the POA.

How did your Dad state the beneficiary on his retirement account ?

Write them, on behalf of your mother, with a copy of the POA attached, and ask for a copy of the beneficiary designation.

You may want to have an attorney write a nasty-gram to them, requesting immediate disbursement.

The alternative is to get a guardianship/conservatorship over Mom.
 

POAPOW

Junior Member
beneficiary

Thank you. I have his documents so I'll go through them today to see if I can find who the beneficiary is. Most likely my mother************** If I can't find it I'll request it.

Thanks again
 

POAPOW

Junior Member
continued

My mother is the beneficiary.

I was appointed her guardian (if he is unwilling or unable) in 3/2000.

All documents , will, POA's, healthchare guardian etc. were preapred in y2k when dad was still alive and mother was coherent.

pre need Guardian for dad goes to mom, if she is unwilling or able I am his pre-need guardian.

pre need for mom goes to dad (now deceased) then me.

Durable POA for dad goes to mom then me

Durable for mom goes to dad then me

health care surrogate same trail for each

will from dad to mom then to myself and two sisters. for general items (jewelry etc.) for "the residue of the estate" it goes to mom then the trustee of the family trust which was established in y2k. ( I am the trsutee)

mom and I are co-representative of his will, if she can not then me, if i can not then one sister then the other.

mom will is the same trail as dads.


Tried to abbreviate hope it is still understandable. Thank you for your interest.
 

anteater

Senior Member
Earlier you wrote:
I'll go through them today to see if I can find who the beneficiary is.
But I do not see that you mentioned the answer.

If your father's estate is the beneficiary, I could understand them requiring a copy of your letters testamentary (or whatever they are called in GA) rather than another Power of Attorney.

If your mother is the beneficiary, then I would think that your POA should enable you to claim the funds on her behalf. But, without having an attorney review the document, that can't be said for certain.

But, as the saying goes about the Golden Rule, "Those with the gold, rule." If they remain rigid, your only recourse is the courts.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Earlier you wrote:

But I do not see that you mentioned the answer.

If your father's estate is the beneficiary, I could understand them requiring a copy of your letters testamentary (or whatever they are called in GA) rather than another Power of Attorney.

If your mother is the beneficiary, then I would think that your POA should enable you to claim the funds on her behalf. But, without having an attorney review the document, that can't be said for certain.

But, as the saying goes about the Golden Rule, "Those with the gold, rule." If they remain rigid, your only recourse is the courts.
That's the key here I think. The dad's POA has no effect. Daughter needs to be appointed as the administrator of dad's estate.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
The Mother Is The Beneficiary - Not The Estate

Respectively, I disagree with you both Zig & ant.

The last sentence of the OP's first paragraph in first post states: ""The Co says I need a NEW POA that specifically references the reitrement plan. Is this normal? Based on this statement, the POA does not grant power to deal with the retirement fund.

Since the mom here is incompetent, she cannot sign another POA.

To POAPOW: No will can appoint anyone as guardian of another person. Wills and other documents such as Advance Health Care Directives can nominate people to be guardian over the grantor. However, only a court makes that final decision and issues a court order for guardian. That's why whatever you have is not legal for the retirement company. You must have a court appointment.

What does the trust document say, if anything, about handling retirement stuff?
 

anteater

Senior Member
Respectively, I disagree with you both Zig & ant.

The last sentence of the OP's first paragraph in first post states: ""The Co says I need a NEW POA that specifically references the reitrement plan. Is this normal? Based on this statement, the POA does not grant power to deal with the retirement fund.
Actually, after re-reading both the first and last post by POAPOW, my head is spinning over what authority he/she is trying to use for what. And the statement, "I have only had this one POA and have been able to do everything else for the estate including sell their house and manage their other assetts" only makes it more confusing.

Nevertheless, venturing into the great unknown..

1) If father's estate is the beneficiary, seems to me that the company would be asking for letters and not some POA.

2) If mother is the beneficiary, most POA documents that I know should enable POAPOW to receive the funds on behalf of mother. But who knows exactly what all those documents POAPOW mentions actually say.

What does the trust document say, if anything, about handling retirement stuff?
Oh shoot! A trust, too? I missed that part.

Of course, without knowing the retirement plan's beneficiary, I suspect that we are all just flapping our gums. Or whatever the equivalent is with a keyboard. Stubbing our fingers?
 
Last edited:

POAPOW

Junior Member
documents etc.

BlondiePb. Thank you for your thoughful responce.

Yes, mom is the beneficiary.

The y2k original doc states the mom and dad are the grantors and trustees. If dad dies or is deemed incomp, then mom and I are trustees, if mom dies or is deemed incompetent the I am the sole trustee.

An amendment was added in 2003 making my father and I co trustees. If something happens to either he or I the other becomes sole trustee.
At my fathers death the trust became irrevocable. it is now deemed a residuary trust. I am the sole trustee.

Under powers and duties of trustees it states, " the trustee of the estate shall have the continuing, absolute discretionary power to deal with any property real or personal held in such trusts.

It specifically mentions life insurance, investments, securities, trust funds, instruments and says I can retain, sell, invest...... etc. It does not spcifically mention 401k, profit sharing plans etc.

If I understand correctly you are saying that the Pre-need Guardian and Health Care Surrogate desigee documents are not valid (although prepared by their attorney, signed by mom, witnessed and notarized) unless a judge signs off on them. is that correct?

Whew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I appreciate your interest in helping me.
 

anteater

Senior Member
I still don't see what the trust has to do with this. If mother is the designated beneficiary of the plan, then mother or her agent/guardian should be able to receive the funds.

Exactly which document did you present to the company when attempting to obtain the funds? Was it the durable POA for your mother?

BlondiePB probably knows about about guardianships, but my understanding is that a preneed only expresses the wishes of the creator. The court still needs to appoint.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
Actually, after re-reading both the first and last post by POAPOW, my head is spinning over what authority he/she is trying to use for what. And the statement, "I have only had this one POA and have been able to do everything else for the estate including sell their house and manage their other assetts" only makes it more confusing.

Nevertheless, venturing into the great unknown..

1) If father's estate is the beneficiary, seems to me that the company would be asking for letters and not some POA.

2) If mother is the beneficiary, most POA documents that I know should enable POAPOW to receive the funds on behalf of mother. But who knows exactly what all those documents POAPOW mentions actually say.


Oh shoot! A trust, too? I missed that part.

Of course, without knowing the retirement plan's beneficiary, I suspect that we are all just flapping our gums. Or whatever the equivalent is with a keyboard. Stubbing our fingers?
Ouch! Yep, there's a lot going on here including sorting out what's what.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
BlondiePb. Thank you for your thoughful responce.

Yes, mom is the beneficiary.

The y2k original doc states the mom and dad are the grantors and trustees. If dad dies or is deemed incomp, then mom and I are trustees, if mom dies or is deemed incompetent the I am the sole trustee.

An amendment was added in 2003 making my father and I co trustees. If something happens to either he or I the other becomes sole trustee.
At my fathers death the trust became irrevocable. it is now deemed a residuary trust. I am the sole trustee.

Under powers and duties of trustees it states, " the trustee of the estate shall have the continuing, absolute discretionary power to deal with any property real or personal held in such trusts.

It specifically mentions life insurance, investments, securities, trust funds, instruments and says I can retain, sell, invest...... etc. It does not spcifically mention 401k, profit sharing plans etc.

If I understand correctly you are saying that the Pre-need Guardian and Health Care Surrogate desigee documents are not valid (although prepared by their attorney, signed by mom, witnessed and notarized) unless a judge signs off on them. is that correct?

Whew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I appreciate your interest in helping me.
Okay, now this is an irrevocable residuary trust. I understand perfectly the irrevocable part, but not the part of it being residuary. Perhaps anteater would be a kind enough to do a bit of research about this due to my lack of time to do so.

Who is the beneficiary of this trust, just your mother?

Yes, you must have a court appoint you as one's guardian. What a will and/or health care directive only does is state the grantor's wishes. Those documents do not give one the power to perform guardian duties. Only a court order does.

Due to the fact that you've tried using different documents, the retirement company could be very skeptical about releasing the funds now. Furthermore, you stated that the trust deals with property in the trust not out of the trust which could be problematic due to the wording you provided.

Please tell us exactly about beneficiary(s) of the trust. Thank you.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
I still don't see what the trust has to do with this. If mother is the designated beneficiary of the plan, then mother or her agent/guardian should be able to receive the funds.
According to the OP, the POA didn't mention retirement stuff. That's why the retirement company won't release the funds.
Exactly which document did you present to the company when attempting to obtain the funds? Was it the durable POA for your mother?
The POA was presented along with what ever papers, like the will, nominating the OP as guardian.

BlondiePB probably knows about about guardianships, but my understanding is that a preneed only expresses the wishes of the creator. The court still needs to appoint.
That is correct.
 

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
data-ad-format="auto">
Top