Question about "lawful order"

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NC, but question deals with CA.


I recently received a phone call from a Deputy from CA, which I verified, telling me that my ex-fiancee had filed a complaint that I was harassing her with annoying phone calls, when in reality, phone records can prove that I haven't made any calls to her in over three months, and that the Deputy was giving me a "lawful order" to have no contact of any kind with this woman, and failure to comply with this lawful order constituted a felony. The Deputy informed me that my ex-fiancee had heard that I was coming to CA. She didn't hear it from me.

I am in NC, 2800 miles away, have made no threats or engaged in any behavior that could be construed as threatening, have made no contact with my ex-fiancee outside of a couple of very docile emails in months, and have no intention of contacting the woman any further.

My question is this...

Does this CA Deputy have the right to give this "lawful order" under these circumstances, and will this crapola go on some kind of permanent record?

manicmusician said:

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NC, but question deals with CA.


I recently received a phone call from a Deputy from CA, which I verified, telling me that my ex-fiancee had filed a complaint that I was harassing her with annoying phone calls, when in reality, phone records can prove that I haven't made any calls to her in over three months, and that the Deputy was giving me a "lawful order" to have no contact of any kind with this woman, and failure to comply with this lawful order constituted a felony. The Deputy informed me that my ex-fiancee had heard that I was coming to CA. She didn't hear it from me.

I am in NC, 2800 miles away, have made no threats or engaged in any behavior that could be construed as threatening, have made no contact with my ex-fiancee outside of a couple of very docile emails in months, and have no intention of contacting the woman any further.

My question is this...

Does this CA Deputy have the right to give this "lawful order" under these circumstances, and will this crapola go on some kind of permanent record?

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Answers:

Yes
and
No

Edited: Second response should be "probably not"

manicmusician said:

I recently received a phone call from a Deputy from CA, which I verified, telling me that my ex-fiancee had filed a complaint that I was harassing her with annoying phone calls, when in reality, phone records can prove that I haven't made any calls to her in over three months,

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No, that's not what the records would show ... they would show that you did not make calls from THAT phone, not that no calls were made at all. In CA the same charge can be made with text messages, phone calls, and even e-mails.

and that the Deputy was giving me a "lawful order" to have no contact of any kind with this woman, and failure to comply with this lawful order constituted a felony. The Deputy informed me that my ex-fiancee had heard that I was coming to CA. She didn't hear it from me.

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First, how do you know this was really a deputy?

Second, if he was a deputy, he was either bluffing or an idiot ... I'm going to go with bluffing (assuming he was a deputy to begin with).

Third, absent a court order, you are under no legal obligation to head this verbal communication. Keep in mind that a restraining order can be issued, and an arrest warrant can even issue should the harassment continue. Considering that you are across the country, there would be logistical and legal difficulties in enforcing either, but that's another topic.

I am in NC, 2800 miles away, have made no threats or engaged in any behavior that could be construed as threatening, have made no contact with my ex-fiancee outside of a couple of very docile emails in months, and have no intention of contacting the woman any further.

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Then you have nothing more to worry about. Don't contact her in ANY way.

Does this CA Deputy have the right to give this "lawful order" under these circumstances, and will this crapola go on some kind of permanent record?

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Not really ... and, unless it's on a report of some kind, no.

- Carl

Thank you for the insights...

I did verify that this was a Nevada Co. CA sheriff's Deputy. She informed me that my ex had filed a complaint via telephone, and that she had confirmed (in what capacity I don't know) the identity of my ex. You've got a point on the phone records, but she changed phones, at least that's what I was told, in October, and neither I nor anyone in my camp have anything beyond an email address as ANY means to contact her. I don't even have a street address.

Follow up question...

If some kind of false report has been filed against me, or actions taken outside the confines of CA or NC law taken by my ex or this deputy, what kind of legal options would I have to handle the issue if I chose to do so?

To qualify that question, I have been advised that I have a solid defamation of character lawsuit against my ex and members of her family (they directly cost me my employment and thousands in lost income...I have their false accusations written to my employment in print...and also have a letter of false accusations circulated throughout the music industry by her father). Would this be a totally seperate matter?

manicmusician said:

Thank you for the insights...

I did verify that this was a Nevada Co. CA sheriff's Deputy.

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How? You called their public number and asked them to connect to the deputy?

In any event, the "order" has no legal standing and the officer was just trying to prevent any further problems ... in other words, the deputy didn't want to have to deal with her again.

If some kind of false report has been filed against me, or actions taken outside the confines of CA or NC law taken by my ex or this deputy, what kind of legal options would I have to handle the issue if I chose to do so?

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It would be a misdemeanor in CA and you could ask the sheriff's department to look into it. However, YOU would have to come out and testify IF it were to go to court. Given the circumstances, unless she confesses that she knowingly made the whole thing up, I don't think the DA would even remotely consider prosecuting even if the sheriff's office decided to send it over.

To qualify that question, I have been advised that I have a solid defamation of character lawsuit against my ex and members of her family (they directly cost me my employment and thousands in lost income...

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For THIS one complaint?

If you have proof that her accusations have cost you employment, then you need to contact an attorney in the relevant jurisdiction and see whether you have a case ... of course, it also requires that she have the funds to pay an award, and that you have the resources to travel a few times if the job losses were here in CA.

I have their false accusations written to my employment in print...and also have a letter of false accusations circulated throughout the music industry by her father). Would this be a totally seperate matter?

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Yes. And it would be civil.

Understand that proving a FALSE complaint is about as easy as proving that they are true. If they cannot be proven as true, then, generally they are unable to proven false, either.

Not only do you have to consider the cost of such a suit, but you will also have to consider the time frame. If over one year, chances are you have passed any time frame to file suit. But, it all depends on the state laws involved and hence the reason you need to speak with an attorney in the jurisdiction where you were slandered or libeled and ask for a consultation on the strength of your case.

- Carl

Thanks Carl...

The Deputy left a callback number both on her voicemail and in a text message. I immediately called a friend here in NC who is a police detective and, while not being aware of CA laws to advise me on the rest of the matter, advised me as you to check the number and verify that it was valid. I searched online, verified that it was in fact the emergency operations number, called it, and they patched me through to her, where she essentially just repeated the message of the voicemails and told me "I, as a Nevada Co. Sheriff's Deputy am giving you a direct order to in no way communicate with Jane Doe ever again." I asked her, "Do you have the authority to do this? Doesn't that have to come via the courts or something?" Her answer, "Yes, I can give you this lawful order according to CA penal code ??? (didn't think to write it down) and failure to comply is a felony."

She was very polite, but direct, although I admittedly felt I was being BSed. I did notice that she continually referenced my ex by her first name rather than Ms. Doe, and I have been curious if it may have been a family friend. I think my ex and her family (loons--out of a cult) genuinely thought, for whatever reason, that I was either in CA or on my way, because this Deputy tried to subtly pry my whereabouts out of me.

manicmusician said:

The Deputy left a callback number both on her voicemail and in a text message. I immediately called a friend here in NC who is a police detective and, while not being aware of CA laws to advise me on the rest of the matter, advised me as you to check the number and verify that it was valid. I searched online, verified that it was in fact the emergency operations number, called it, and they patched me through to her, where she essentially just repeated the message of the voicemails and told me "I, as a Nevada Co. Sheriff's Deputy am giving you a direct order to in no way communicate with Jane Doe ever again." I asked her, "Do you have the authority to do this? Doesn't that have to come via the courts or something?" Her answer, "Yes, I can give you this lawful order according to CA penal code ??? (didn't think to write it down) and failure to comply is a felony."

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She was bluffing ... or an idiot. Like I said before, I'm going to go with bluffing.

Even if it were a court order, the violation would only be a misdemeanor, so it's certainly not a felony to disobey the verbal order of a peace officer.

But, her warning puts you on notice that the contact is unwanted, so any future contact might result in criminal prosecution or a restraining order ... neither of which would be easy to enforce across the country, but it could make life a pain.


- Carl

I agree with Carl in that this is not a lawful order and, if it were, it would be a misdemeanor to violate it and not a felony. (For the violation of the order. The underlying crime possibility may be different.) When I first read the post, I also thought it could be used to help prosecute future contacts by making the intent element easier. (aka "her warning puts you on notice that the contact is unwanted") However, on reflection, I think the prosecution would try to get the warning in but believe the defense would have a good chance of keeping it out. If they couldn't, I can see some of the cross. "So, officer Jones, you admit you lied to my client when you called him, why should we believe you now when you say you are telling the truth?" (Not a great question, but I'm in a rush. I think you get the idea.)

I agree that the warning is vulnerable, but, the general idea that the person was put on notice that future calls can be more important than either the officer's mistake of law or exaggeration. I know that *I* would not have made such a grandiose claim, but I likely would have said that further contact could result in criminal prosecution.

- Carl

I don't disagree, but maybe a trial attorney can get in here and speak of the difficulties in getting it in. (GL?) Relevence, lack of foundation, heresay are all possible objections depending on the specific facts.

Thank you guys for the insight. One more question that's been on my mind concerning this...

Is it normal procedure for a Deputy to make a call to someone on the other side of the continent to inform them that a complaint of harassment, or whatever you would term the complaint, has been made against them?

If I were actually harassing this woman, or were some kind of threat to her, I would think (of course I know next to nothing about the fine details of the law or procedure) a restraining order or whatever would be protocol.

The whole deal was more than unexpected. It was just weird. I have my own suspicions about it, but it was just weird.

manicmusician said:

Is it normal procedure for a Deputy to make a call to someone on the other side of the continent to inform them that a complaint of harassment, or whatever you would term the complaint, has been made against them?

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Actually, yes. At least, this has been my experience. Sometimes it is easier just to make the call, hope it is enough to rattle the other party's cage, and stop the problem. It very often works.

If I were actually harassing this woman, or were some kind of threat to her, I would think (of course I know next to nothing about the fine details of the law or procedure) a restraining order or whatever would be protocol.

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The court might want to see some attempt to get the other party to stop the activity prior to issuing a restraining order.

- Carl

??? manicmusician, just wondering what the last Judge placed into the court records for the method of communications if any, to be used between you and your EX?
Too often law enforcement officers get duked into being pulled in to ex marital spats.
My advice is to avoid the EX as much as possible. Life is too short.

Thanks Carl. Your insight is much appreciated.

Jane...We were never married. Only engaged. The stuff this week appears to be the result of her or some member of her family coming under the impression that I was either in CA to see her or headed there. As I said earlier, I haven't expressed desire or plans to go to CA to anyone that I can remember in months, and have never been closer than 1200 miles to the state. I've made no phone calls to her in over 3 months. In fact, SHE initiated the most recent phone call, which was roughly 2 months ago. In recent weeks I have sent her a couple of very docile emails, which for all I know, she may have blocked.

Long story short, her family is out of a cult, is more or less controlling her life and decision making right now, and have a history of paranoid, irrational behavior. It's a strange situation which I wanted to remove her from, strong suspicions of sexual abuse, emotional abuse, mind control and such, but by the same token, I might be crazy but I'm not dumb, and I realize that she as a 24 year old woman has to make the choice to leave. I can't make her, and I've long known that until SHE acknowledges and pursues, on her own, legally, my own and many others' suspicions, the law is on her side on the path she's chosen, for better or for worse.

As I said earlier, I am considering legal action of my own against members of her family for some fairly sizable financial losses. Speaking to an attorney today, in fact, and any future communication with her or her family would only be done through my attorney if I go that route.

Well...A little over an hour ago I was visited by a local Sheriff's Deputy. He told me he was contacted yesterday by the CA Deputy that had called me Wednesday, and was asked by her to contact me and communicate the message that my ex wanted no contact with me.

I asked him to listen to the voicemails, and he found them troubling. He informed me that what she had done, if he were to do it as a NC Deputy, would be considered out of line and possibly intimidation. What he found most confusing was that she felt the need for him to also contact me, considering the messages she had left on my voicemail and my personal telephone communication with her, and given that there was no report filed of which he's aware, no court orders, et cetera. I don't know what his dialogue with her might have been, but I get the sense that when he came here he was under the assumption that he was delivering a message that I had not heard previously.

He advised me as you guys have. He recommended letting an attorney look into even the issue with the CA Deputy rather than doing so on my own, and said all contact with my ex definitely should be handled by an attorney.

He agreed that something seemed fishy about all of this, but he was just delivering a message. He left shaking his head. Strange stuff.