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POA signature valid?

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jnsct3

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Tennessee.

On the deed to a house I own (I hope), the owner of which died and there were 8 of his heirs who sold it to me, the woman who was power of attorney for the others signed her own name to all the signature blanks. For example, the sig lines show as:

_________________________________
John Doe, by Jane Doe as his attorney-in-fact

but the actual signature itself reads only "Jane Doe" on each line.

Is this house legally mine?

jnsct3What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
 


BlondiePB

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Tennessee.

On the deed to a house I own (I hope), the owner of which died and there were 8 of his heirs who sold it to me, the woman who was power of attorney for the others signed her own name to all the signature blanks. For example, the sig lines show as:

_________________________________
John Doe, by Jane Doe as his attorney-in-fact

but the actual signature itself reads only "Jane Doe" on each line.

Is this house legally mine?

jnsct3What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
The house didn't go through probate first? :confused:
 

jnsct3

Junior Member
Yes it did, then heirs sold

it to me. Now I'm trying to sell and want to know if this will be an issue.
 

jnsct3

Junior Member
Eight heirs are spread out all over the

country, so just one had POA for all the others to "simplify" things.
 

jnsct3

Junior Member
He already screwed up, missed something else,

so although I was going to stop in his office tomorrow to ask him about this, I don't really trust him and would like to try to have some foreknowledge before I talk to him so I can ask the right questions.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
so although I was going to stop in his office tomorrow to ask him about this, I don't really trust him and would like to try to have some foreknowledge before I talk to him so I can ask the right questions.
Your question is straight-forward enough. Are the signatures valid?
 

jnsct3

Junior Member
Okay. I will try to

overlook his previous error, which is being dealt with, and have faith that he knows what he's talking about this time. Thanks.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
It seems like you are missing the first half of your post each time. In matters such as this, the facts matter. You have provided only the barest of facts. True POA have the power to bind. Is the person true? Did they intend to bind? That's where the facts matter.

See an attorney.
 

latigo

Senior Member
(You are not going to like this.)

But first tell me what you mean by - “was the woman’s signature VALID”?

Are you asking whether her signature was authentic, genuine, forged or what? And how would anyone in here know? Did you see her sign it? Did she prove to you that she was that person?

BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT! Far removed from the point.

The point is that you are totally lost here and I hope you haven’t lost your shirt in the process.

Because if you are saying that you bought real property from this woman purely on the strength that she told you that she had the authority/power to sell it on behalf of the legal owners. . .

AND YOU DID NOT demand that she procure a commitment for a policy of title insurance warranting that in closing with her the title company would issue you a title policy insuring marketable title in your name . . .

THEN YOU ACTED VERY, VERY FOOLISHLY INDEED! And it doesn’t make a hoot of difference what sort of POA or other documents she may have showed you.
_____

But hypothetically let’s take it in another direction

Suppose that all of the 8 people had inherited the property; that it stood of record in their joint names, and they each had in fact given the woman power of attorney to sell their individual 1/8th interest.

That wouldn’t necessary mean that you bought anything of value. Or that you could turn it around by selling it.

There could be any number of and any assortment of liens against the property in any amounts, including any outstanding judgments, tax liens against one or more of these 8 heirs.

That is why you should have demanded a title commitment. Not only to determine whether or not the woman had the legal capacity to convey title, but whether or not the title was worth anything.

Sax
 

jnsct3

Junior Member
More info

I have an owner's policy through Lender's. They did a title search, but the problem happened in the purchase transaction, so their lawyers should have caught it when I bought but didn't. So now that problem has turned up on the title search for the sale transaction through the buyer's title company.

I also had a RE attorney review the documents before closing. Even though I was told I didn't NEED a lawyer, I insisted. I did everything I could think of to cover all my bases.

There was another lawyer involved with drawing up the POA for the sellers, and HE screwed up first. The POA was issued because the heirs are spread out all over the country and so two of them were supposed to be authorized to sign for all of them.

The problem that I first became aware of with the POA is that the lawyer who drew it up got too specific in the property description. I'm told he could have just put the street address and that would have been sufficient to convey both lots the house sits on. But he attempted to copy the property description off the original deed, and he only listed one lot. A quit claim is being circulated amongst the sellers for the second lot, so as I understand it this issue will be resolved as long as all parties sign it.

But I was talking yesterday to the buyer's title company, whose title search turned up the problem with the missing lot on the POA, and she also mentioned that Lender's screwed it all up and that she was not sure that the signatures on the deed were sufficient because the persons named on the POA only signed THEIR names on all the sig lines on the deed, as in the example noted in my original post. I'm trying to determine if this is a pending problem. If it is I want to start dealing with it now and not waiting for one problem to be resolved and then having a whole new problem to start from scratch with.

There's been lawyers all over the place in this and it seems they ALL either made or missed mistakes. This did not happen because I tried to do it myself thinking I know it all and trying to save a few bucks. I did what I was supposed to and now I'm stuck in this mess.

I came here to try to educate myself so that the people involved will take me more seriously and quit running me around. I read somewhere online that when a POA signs on someone else's behalf, the main guideline is that they make it clear that they are signing for someone else. Each line that was signed on had typed underneath, so-and-so by so-and-so, attorney in fact. But the signers only actually signed their own names. That's what I mean by asking if the signatures are valid. They are real people with the right and intention to sell us this property they inherited, and these are in fact their signatures, but is the way they did it valid to convey title?

I am going to the courthouse this morning to track down all the paperwork involved and talk to the ladies there who do title research every day to see if this would raise red flags for them. Then I will go to the attorney who was supposed to be looking out for my interest and see what he has to say about all this. So far all I've gotten from him is "good luck," but that was not an "official" meeting in his office but rather when I ran into him in town, so I need to speak to him in a more formal setting.

I will check back later to see if anyone has an opinion about the signatures on the deed, as that is my primary concern at this moment. Thanks.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I have an owner's policy through Lender's. They did a title search, but the problem happened in the purchase transaction, so their lawyers should have caught it when I bought but didn't. So now that problem has turned up on the title search for the sale transaction through the buyer's title company.

I also had a RE attorney review the documents before closing. Even though I was told I didn't NEED a lawyer, I insisted. I did everything I could think of to cover all my bases.

There was another lawyer involved with drawing up the POA for the sellers, and HE screwed up first. The POA was issued because the heirs are spread out all over the country and so two of them were supposed to be authorized to sign for all of them.

The problem that I first became aware of with the POA is that the lawyer who drew it up got too specific in the property description. I'm told he could have just put the street address and that would have been sufficient to convey both lots the house sits on. But he attempted to copy the property description off the original deed, and he only listed one lot. A quit claim is being circulated amongst the sellers for the second lot, so as I understand it this issue will be resolved as long as all parties sign it.

But I was talking yesterday to the buyer's title company, whose title search turned up the problem with the missing lot on the POA, and she also mentioned that Lender's screwed it all up and that she was not sure that the signatures on the deed were sufficient because the persons named on the POA only signed THEIR names on all the sig lines on the deed, as in the example noted in my original post. I'm trying to determine if this is a pending problem. If it is I want to start dealing with it now and not waiting for one problem to be resolved and then having a whole new problem to start from scratch with.

There's been lawyers all over the place in this and it seems they ALL either made or missed mistakes. This did not happen because I tried to do it myself thinking I know it all and trying to save a few bucks. I did what I was supposed to and now I'm stuck in this mess.

I came here to try to educate myself so that the people involved will take me more seriously and quit running me around. I read somewhere online that when a POA signs on someone else's behalf, the main guideline is that they make it clear that they are signing for someone else. Each line that was signed on had typed underneath, so-and-so by so-and-so, attorney in fact. But the signers only actually signed their own names. That's what I mean by asking if the signatures are valid. They are real people with the right and intention to sell us this property they inherited, and these are in fact their signatures, but is the way they did it valid to convey title?

I am going to the courthouse this morning to track down all the paperwork involved and talk to the ladies there who do title research every day to see if this would raise red flags for them. Then I will go to the attorney who was supposed to be looking out for my interest and see what he has to say about all this. So far all I've gotten from him is "good luck," but that was not an "official" meeting in his office but rather when I ran into him in town, so I need to speak to him in a more formal setting.

I will check back later to see if anyone has an opinion about the signatures on the deed, as that is my primary concern at this moment. Thanks.
Ok, since you don't want the rest of the advice, I'll say this: ASSuming that the POA itself is valid, then the method in which the document(s) was(were) signed is correct.
 

jnsct3

Junior Member
I just got back from the courthouse.

Couldn't get with the lawyer yet, as he is in a meeting this morning; I'll catch up to him later.

I looked at the paperwork that was filed with the deed. POA documents are recorded for each of the heirs. The estate was in probate at the time I bought it, and the house was being sold as part of settling the estate. The two people who are POAs were the co-administrators of the estate and were selling the house with that authority and under the court's supervision. I believe the POA is good except for the problem with the second lot, which is being addressed.

I'm not sure what is the rest of the advice you think I don't want. I clearly need all the help I can get and certainly have not been looking to antagonize anyone, although it seems I have and I apologize. The post I was replying to seemed to imply that it's my own stupid fault for not getting help from a lawyer or title insurance, but I did.

I tried to do things right and cover all my bases, and I'm very frustrated and upset, because none of this should have happened. Again, I believe the problem with the second lot is being resolved, although no one seems to be in any kind of hurry about it and I'm sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to see how it comes out.

My concern about the signatures on the deed is that I don't want to get one problem resolved and then have another pop up and delay closing a couple of more months to fix when it could have been resolved at the same time. Also, I'm selling the house to my sister (perhaps ill-advised at this point), and I'm scared about possibly selling her a problem that may take years to manifest, and by then it will be impossible to track down all these people; it'll only get worse rather than better over time and so I'm trying to address all potential problems NOW.
 

jnsct3

Junior Member
If anyone's interested, here's what I learned today.

Met with the lawyer who supposedly "oversaw" my purchase of this property in the beginning, and he's pretty much washing his hands of the whole thing. He may be responsible for these problems, but for him to actually take responsibility, I would have to force the issue, which I don't have the time, money, or inclination to do as things stand now. He did give me a couple of names of other attorneys who might be willing to help if I can't get this resolved myself (what a guy, huh?).

As far as the status of those signatures I originally came here questioning, the lawyer says he doesn't like it and he would never do it that way himself, but he felt it was adequate at the time we made the purchase and therefore gave us the go ahead to close.

However, he said he could think of at least two attorneys off the top of his head who would never accept it like that and would insist on a correction being recorded. I think he should have rejected it way back when on that basis alone, but that's water under the bridge at this point.

If I were selling this house to a stranger, I would pray the buyer's title company would accept it the way it is, get my money, and do the "I'm-out-clean" happy dance. But my sister is the buyer, and if she tries to sell the house 10 years down the road and her buyer's attorney/title company won't accept it the way it is, it is very possible if not likely they would not be able to track all these people down. And if one of them were to die in the meantime, then it would be a matter of tracking down that person's heirs and convincing them to sign away an interest they never knew they had and who might decide to try to profit from it. This is just too fraught with potential future problems to lay at my own sister's feet. So I told her to contact her title company and make a stink about having it corrected. Even if it takes longer to close, she's not going anywhere as a buyer and she will sleep better at night for years to come knowing it is taken care of. I also told her she probably will want to get her own owner's policy and perhaps even her own attorney to go over everything before closing. Didn't work out for me like it should've, but all anyone can do is try to the best of their ability to protect themselves, and it probably would work out better for her. I had the unfortunate experience of getting involved in a deal involving three, count 'em THREE (at the minimum), incompetent disinterested attorneys, but they can't all be like that, can they? (Don't answer that)
 

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