MSA - Question about couple of items

ramonaspaskos · Dec 9, 2009

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I am doing my case pro per and had some questions on my MSA

1) In the section for child support, it states "Petitoner earns $7000 per month. Respondent is currently not employed but has the ability to earn $1000 per month. During the marriage, her reasonable needs for support amounted to $3500". Then it goes on to state that I must pay $700 in child support a month (which is the same as the temporary order).

My question here is the following: I am assuming they took my salary and used half to say that is her "reasonable needs". Is this figure the amount that is used to determine child support? I thought if one party is not employed that they would use the $1000 listed above

2) In the section for spousal support, it states "parties have considered family code section 4320". Based on respondents needs, dedicating her time to taking care of the home and paetitoner's ability to pay, petitioner will pay respondent $1300 per month.

My question here is the following: Should I request they remove the actual spousal amount and wait for the judge to make that determination? This amount is the same as on the temporary order (which used different figures - they used $1000 for her rather than $3500

3) Also in the spousal section, it goes on to say "If respondent works and earns in excess of $3500 dollars, then spousal will be reduced dollar for dollar on any amount over $3500.

My question here is the following: If we used $1000 and my $7000 to determine the temporary amount (which is the same now on the msa), why should she have to earn 3.5X more, before I can ask for a reduction in spousal? I think this whole section smells pretty bad and wanted it removed

4) The MSA also states i need to get 350k in life insurance with the stbx as sole and irrevocable beneficiary. What are my options here? Can I insist on having a guardian / put in an insurance trust?

Thanks for your time

Ronin · Dec 9, 2009

4) The MSA also states i need to get 350k in life insurance with the stbx as sole and irrevocable beneficiary. What are my options here? Can I insist on having a guardian / put in an insurance trust?

You would surely be worth more dead than alive to your ex if you agree to this

. Anyway, tell your ex and her attorney to take this one and stuff it ...

The only insurance that might be reasonable in such a case is one that is effectively construed as a GAP type insurance to cover lost child support in the event of your untimely demise. However, if you run up the numbers you may find that in your case social security survivor benefits to your children may well exceed what you currently pay in child support.

You should also do the math on your total spousal support payout will be worst case, and you may need to provide insurance for this... but this is not a given.

Others here may comment on your other items.

LdiJ · Dec 10, 2009

ramonaspaskos said:
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I am doing my case pro per and had some questions on my MSA

1) In the section for child support, it states "Petitoner earns $7000 per month. Respondent is currently not employed but has the ability to earn $1000 per month. During the marriage, her reasonable needs for support amounted to $3500". Then it goes on to state that I must pay $700 in child support a month (which is the same as the temporary order).

My question here is the following: I am assuming they took my salary and used half to say that is her "reasonable needs". Is this figure the amount that is used to determine child support? I thought if one party is not employed that they would use the $1000 listed above

2) In the section for spousal support, it states "parties have considered family code section 4320". Based on respondents needs, dedicating her time to taking care of the home and paetitoner's ability to pay, petitioner will pay respondent $1300 per month.

My question here is the following: Should I request they remove the actual spousal amount and wait for the judge to make that determination? This amount is the same as on the temporary order (which used different figures - they used $1000 for her rather than $3500

3) Also in the spousal section, it goes on to say "If respondent works and earns in excess of $3500 dollars, then spousal will be reduced dollar for dollar on any amount over $3500.

My question here is the following: If we used $1000 and my $7000 to determine the temporary amount (which is the same now on the msa), why should she have to earn 3.5X more, before I can ask for a reduction in spousal? I think this whole section smells pretty bad and wanted it removed

4) The MSA also states i need to get 350k in life insurance with the stbx as sole and irrevocable beneficiary. What are my options here? Can I insist on having a guardian / put in an insurance trust?

Thanks for your time

If your income is 7k a month, and the MSA has you paying only 700.00 in child support that is a really low amount of child support, even for just one child.

Ohiogal · Dec 10, 2009

Truthfully mom should be imputed with at least full time minimum wage per year. Which is more than 12k. If she is capable of earning more than minimum wage (because she has a provable past earning history) then she should be imputed with more. I would not agree to those numbers.

LdiJ · Dec 10, 2009

Ohiogal said:
Truthfully mom should be imputed with at least full time minimum wage per year. Which is more than 12k. If she is capable of earning more than minimum wage (because she has a provable past earning history) then she should be imputed with more. I would not agree to those numbers.

My concern is that child support is very low. I hoped that the OP would comment on that. If child support is below guideline, then the OP is actually better off with designated spousal support, because spousal support is tax deductible to the OP and child support is not.

If the OP objects to the numbers, and child support is raised to guideline level, then the OP could possibly be out of pocket more.

Ohiogal · Dec 10, 2009

LdiJ said:
My concern is that child support is very low. I hoped that the OP would comment on that. If child support is below guideline, then the OP is actually better off with designated spousal support, because spousal support is tax deductible to the OP and child support is not.

If the OP objects to the numbers, and child support is raised to guideline level, then the OP could possibly be out of pocket more.

Good point. However I wonder if OP's ex realizes that spousal support is considered income? That may have something to do with the numbers.

Bali Hai · Dec 10, 2009

ramonaspaskos said:
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I am doing my case pro per and had some questions on my MSA

1) In the section for child support, it states "Petitoner earns $7000 per month. Respondent is currently not employed but has the ability to earn $1000 per month. During the marriage, her reasonable needs for support amounted to $3500". Then it goes on to state that I must pay $700 in child support a month (which is the same as the temporary order).

My question here is the following: I am assuming they took my salary and used half to say that is her "reasonable needs". Is this figure the amount that is used to determine child support? I thought if one party is not employed that they would use the $1000 listed above

2) In the section for spousal support, it states "parties have considered family code section 4320". Based on respondents needs, dedicating her time to taking care of the home and paetitoner's ability to pay, petitioner will pay respondent $1300 per month.

My question here is the following: Should I request they remove the actual spousal amount and wait for the judge to make that determination? This amount is the same as on the temporary order (which used different figures - they used $1000 for her rather than $3500

3) Also in the spousal section, it goes on to say "If respondent works and earns in excess of $3500 dollars, then spousal will be reduced dollar for dollar on any amount over $3500.

Don't hold your hand over your "you know what" waiting for that BS to happen!

My question here is the following: If we used $1000 and my $7000 to determine the temporary amount (which is the same now on the msa), why should she have to earn 3.5X more, before I can ask for a reduction in spousal? I think this whole section smells pretty bad and wanted it removed

4) The MSA also states i need to get 350k in life insurance with the stbx as sole and irrevocable beneficiary. What are my options here? Can I insist on having a guardian / put in an insurance trust?

Thanks for your time

You spouse is clearly under-employed, and, with this ridiculous demand, she has no incentive to become anything more.

ramonaspaskos · Dec 10, 2009

To respond to the question on child support. This amount was determined both by her lawyer and my ex lawyer (prior to be becoming pro per). This was also the amount in the temporary order. I ran a calculation on the CA child support website and it came back as $980. I have no issues paying this since my kid I care about. I will get this changed

I would love to get more opinions on the need for life insurance. As the first poster mentioned, my kid is entitled to my SS if I die. So can't I get a life insurance policy for less to cover the difference between SS and what the monthly payments would be? I don't trust that if I give the stbx 350K that she will actually use it for the kid. Is there any case law in CA when SS has been used instead of / in addition to life insurance to pay for child support after death? Freaks me out

to talk about my own death but I need to get it right for my kid. Thanks again

mistoffolees · Dec 10, 2009

ramonaspaskos said:
I would love to get more opinions on the need for life insurance. As the first poster mentioned, my kid is entitled to my SS if I die. So can't I get a life insurance policy for less to cover the difference between SS and what the monthly payments would be? I don't trust that if I give the stbx 350K that she will actually use it for the kid. Is there any case law in CA when SS has been used instead of / in addition to life insurance to pay for child support after death? Freaks me out to talk about my own death but I need to get it right for my kid. Thanks again

Technically, you're not REQUIRED to have life insurance. You're talking about a negotiated agreement.

The most common (and probably the most rational) practice is for you to carry life insurance sufficient to cover your remaining obligations. That is, if you died tomorrow, it would be enough to pay your child support and/or spousal support obligations. You could reduce the child support amount by SS payments if you wish, but that's not usually done AFAIK.

It is possible to get a declining value life insurance policy (because your unpaid obligations drop each year), so ask your agent about it. Since the amount is smaller when you're older, it might have a significant impact on your premium.

Do NOT make your stbx the beneficiary of the policy. Rather, talk with your attorney about how to do it. In my case, I have a trust which is the beneficiary and my brother is the trustee. That way, the money goes to my daughter and someone I trust will be responsible for distributing it.

I'm guessing that you haven't considered updating your will (if you even have one). What about all your other assets if you die? You can set up the trust in such a way that everything you own goes to the trust (properly done, this can also help with probate) with someone you trust managing it.

Depending on the complexity, the price may be significant (I think mine was $2,000 which I thought was reasonable given the complexity), but it will greatly simplify estate planning and make sure that your assets go where YOU want them to go.

ramonaspaskos · Dec 10, 2009

Thanks for the response. On the SS item, my thinking was that if I die my kid is entitled to survivor benefits. Say I pay $980 per month in child support. If the survivor benefits pays $500 per month, should I not get life insurance for $480 per month to cover my full obligation. I don't want to deprive my kid but don't want stbx getting her paws on the money. Thanks

mistoffolees · Dec 10, 2009

ramonaspaskos said:
Thanks for the response. On the SS item, my thinking was that if I die my kid is entitled to survivor benefits. Say I pay $980 per month in child support. If the survivor benefits pays $500 per month, should I not get life insurance for $480 per month to cover my full obligation. I don't want to deprive my kid but don't want stbx getting her paws on the money. Thanks

You're not paying attention. You are not required to carry ANY insurance. The amount of insurance you carry is purely dependent on what you negotiate with your stbx.

You can agree to enough insurance to cover $480 per month or you can agree to $980 per month - or anything in between (actually, even more or even less, if you agree to it).

As I said, most of the ones I've seen agree to enough insurance to cover the full amount, not the reduced amount, but it's entirely up to what you can negotiate.

Also, don't forget the time value of money. Let's say you agree to $1 K per month and your child will turn 18 in exactly 10 years. If you ignore the time value of money, you'd need $120 K in insurance. In reality, you need enough insurance to buy an annuity that would provide that amount - probably more like $100 K. However, term insurance is reasonably cheap and since it's for the benefit of your child, there's no harm in having more than this minimum amount.

Zigner · Dec 10, 2009

Bali Hai said:
You spouse is clearly under-employed, and, with this ridiculous demand, she has no incentive to become anything more.

Bali -

I'm disappointed. Where is the venom? If there's ANY case that calls for it, it seems to be this one

I expected a much more impassioned reply, and would have agreed with it whole-heartedly.

LdiJ · Dec 10, 2009

ramonaspaskos said:
To respond to the question on child support. This amount was determined both by her lawyer and my ex lawyer (prior to be becoming pro per). This was also the amount in the temporary order. I ran a calculation on the CA child support website and it came back as $980. I have no issues paying this since my kid I care about. I will get this changed

I would love to get more opinions on the need for life insurance. As the first poster mentioned, my kid is entitled to my SS if I die. So can't I get a life insurance policy for less to cover the difference between SS and what the monthly payments would be? I don't trust that if I give the stbx 350K that she will actually use it for the kid. Is there any case law in CA when SS has been used instead of / in addition to life insurance to pay for child support after death? Freaks me out to talk about my own death but I need to get it right for my kid. Thanks again

When parents can manage it, I do think its a very good thing to have life insurance available to provide for the child. It helps with major issues and things like college, etc. If you don't want mom to have direct control of the money, you can set up a trust with your child as the beneficiary. For example, mom could have use of the income from the trust to cover ordinary needs of the child, and any other expenditures are limited to medical or higher education costs.

Bali Hai · Dec 10, 2009

Zigner said:
Bali -

I'm disappointed. Where is the venom? If there's ANY case that calls for it, it seems to be this one I expected a much more impassioned reply, and would have agreed with it whole-heartedly.

I'm trying out a new approach.

Proserpina · Dec 10, 2009

Bali Hai said:
I'm trying out a new approach.

You're scaring us

MSA - Question about couple of items

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ramonaspaskos

Junior Member

Ronin

Member

LdiJ

Senior Member

Ohiogal

Queen Bee

LdiJ

Senior Member

Ohiogal

Queen Bee

Bali Hai

Senior Member

ramonaspaskos

Junior Member

mistoffolees

Senior Member

ramonaspaskos

Junior Member

mistoffolees

Senior Member

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney

LdiJ

Senior Member

Bali Hai

Senior Member

Proserpina

Senior Member

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