Help with Speeding Ticket in CA

I was issued a speeding ticket a few weeks ago in California, east of Sacramento on I-80. While I was exceeding the maximum posted limit of 65, I was not driving the 83 mph that one officer clocked me at (with Lidar), considering I had my cruise control set to 75 (speed of traffic). I have a few questions.....

1) This was one of those set-ups that waste taxpayers money, where there was one CHP officer posted at the end of an on ramp, radaring drivers and dispatching one of the 8 other CHP officers that were sitting ducks on the on ramp. My question is this, when I go to court which officer will be at the hearing? The one who pulled me over, or the one that had radared me? I wonder because, if the ticket writing officer comes, how can he accurately testify if he hadn't actually used the Lidar himself?

2) What should I ask for in terms of discovery? I don't fully understand the speed trap laws, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask for the speed survey. Any help/info on this end would be great!

3) My ticket has a few errors, nothing major though, just the wrong state for my license plate and wrong registration expiration date. Not that I think this would get me out of a ticket in any way, but I'm curious if it shows a lack of thoroughness on the officer's part. He also did not ask to see my registration or insurance when he pulled me over - just asked what kind of insurance I had. Not only did he have to come back to my 2x to ask me about my insurance, but he had to ask me 3x what year my car was. Will this help at all, maybe just showing that he wasn't thorough?

4) Is there distance or range that an officer can use the Lidar and it still be considered valid/acceptable/reasonable? I was roughly 850' from where the officer was using the Lidar, and was surrounded by other vehicles (obviously going the same speed as me).

Also, I live in Nevada - am I correct that the NV DMV won't show any points on my record since I received the ticket in CA?

Thanks for your help!

LTKS said:

1) This was one of those set-ups that waste taxpayers money, where there was one CHP officer posted at the end of an on ramp, radaring drivers and dispatching one of the 8 other CHP officers that were sitting ducks on the on ramp. My question is this, when I go to court which officer will be at the hearing? The one who pulled me over, or the one that had radared me?

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Usually, the officer who issued and signed the citation would be the one notified of the appearance in court.

LTKS said:

I wonder because, if the ticket writing officer comes, how can he accurately testify if he hadn't actually used the Lidar himself?

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Well, if he testifies that another officer measured your speed and he issued the citation, then you can make a hearsay objection.

LTKS said:

2) What should I ask for in terms of discovery? I don't fully understand the speed trap laws, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask for the speed survey. Any help/info on this end would be great!

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Speed trap laws do not apply when a citation is issued for Maximum speed citations... So a speed survey will not do you any good in this case.

The one thing that you should probably ask for is a list of witnesses (officers) who will appear...

LTKS said:

3) My ticket has a few errors, nothing major though, just the wrong state for my license plate and wrong registration expiration date. Not that I think this would get me out of a ticket in any way, but I'm curious if it shows a lack of thoroughness on the officer's part. He also did not ask to see my registration or insurance when he pulled me over - just asked what kind of insurance I had. Not only did he have to come back to my 2x to ask me about my insurance, but he had to ask me 3x what year my car was. Will this help at all, maybe just showing that he wasn't thorough?!

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I don't see any of those errors making such a big difference...

LTKS said:

4) Is there distance or range that an officer can use the Lidar and it still be considered valid/acceptable/reasonable? I was roughly 850' from where the officer was using the Lidar, and was surrounded by other vehicles (obviously going the same speed as me).

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850 feet is a pretty reasonable distance for a Lidar measurement.

LTKS said:

Also, I live in Nevada - am I correct that the NV DMV won't show any points on my record since I received the ticket in CA?

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Actually, CA may report this violation (if you are found guilty) to NV and Nevada will assess points on your license according to Nevada's own point schedule.

This is what I have on my discovery list so far:

 A list of all witnesses for the prosecution.
 The make, model, serial number, options and age of the Lidar unit used in this case;
 A copy of all records regarding the maintenance and calibration of the Lidar unit used in this case;
 A copy of each and every training certification issued to the officer(s) involving the use of said Lidar unit, including Certification of Competency, any training material and officer training records.
 A copy of department, local and state policies pertaining to radar/Lidar use.
 A copy of all of officer notes on this case including copies of the front and back of the officer’s copy of the ticket.
 Information stating the precise distance at which the Lidar unit was used to detect the vehicle in this case.


Also, regarding the points on my NV record, the DMV website states: "Nevada residents who received a citation in another state - Contact the court of jurisdiction as listed on the citation for possible plea bargain arrangements. Any conviction will become part of your Nevada driving record. Out-of-state convictions do not generate demerit points. " I take this to mean, yes, it will be on my record, but there will not be any points associated with it.

I would also, in addition ask for

LTKS said:

This is what I have on my discovery list so far:

 A list of all witnesses for the prosecution.
 The make, model, serial number, options and age of the Lidar unit used in this case;
 A copy of all records regarding the maintenance and calibration of the Lidar unit used in this case;
 A copy of each and every training certification issued to the officer(s) involving the use of said Lidar unit, including Certification of Competency, any training material and officer training records.
 A copy of department, local and state policies pertaining to radar/Lidar use.
 A copy of all of officer notes on this case including copies of the front and back of the officer’s copy of the ticket.
 Information stating the precise distance at which the Lidar unit was used to detect the vehicle in this case.


Also, regarding the points on my NV record, the DMV website states: "Nevada residents who received a citation in another state - Contact the court of jurisdiction as listed on the citation for possible plea bargain arrangements. Any conviction will become part of your Nevada driving record. Out-of-state convictions do not generate demerit points. " I take this to mean, yes, it will be on my record, but there will not be any points associated with it.

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1- any training records of police officer in respect to the SMD used
2- any documents relating to any speed measurement certificates or other similar documents showing officer has completed any type of training regarding the measurement of a vehicle's speed (looking for visual training)
3- production of things : examine the lidar distance testing area used with this SMD
4- ask for the SMD manual (via discovery and a FOIA request to cops)
5- a list of any expert witnesses (different than std witnesses)
6-Production of things: examine the actual LIDAR unit itself (may show signs of droppage or damage)

That was amusing.

Assuming they do respond to your IDR...

LTKS said:

A list of all witnesses for the prosecution.

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You'll get that...

LTKS said:

The make, model, serial number, options and age of the Lidar unit used in this case;

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You'll get model and serial #... Not sure what you mean by "options"... As for age, and so long as its properly calibrated/maintained, and is found to be in working order at the most recent calibration check, age is irrelevant.

LTKS said:

A copy of all records regarding the maintenance and calibration of the Lidar unit used in this case;

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You'll get the most recent calibration certificate...

LTKS said:

A copy of each and every training certification issued to the officer(s) involving the use of said Lidar unit, including Certification of Competency, any training material and officer training records.

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You'll get a copy of the offficer's P.O.S.T. certificate showing he has successfully completed the course, as well as the 24 hours of Radar training and 8 hours of Laser training... Not sure what you mean by "training records"...

LTKS said:

A copy of department, local and state policies pertaining to radar/Lidar use.

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You're NOT going to get that...

LTKS said:

A copy of all of officer notes on this case including copies of the front and back of the officer’s copy of the ticket.

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You'll get that...

LTKS said:

Information stating the precise distance at which the Lidar unit was used to detect the vehicle in this case.

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Its on your citation... Is it not? They may play nice and include it as a note...


Question is, who are you serving your discovery request on? The District Attorney or the CHP, or both?

And a follow up question, you get all relevant material in your request.... Then what?

Just so you'd know, VC 22349(a)'s (which is the code section I'm assuming you were cited for) are extremely difficult to beat. CHP's primary duty is traffic enforcement, their equipment is regularly tested, their officers are certified and trained not only in the use of equipment, but how to testify in court.

LTKS said:

Also, regarding the points on my NV record, the DMV website states: "Nevada residents who received a citation in another state - Contact the court of jurisdiction as listed on the citation for possible plea bargain arrangements. Any conviction will become part of your Nevada driving record. Out-of-state convictions do not generate demerit points. " I take this to mean, yes, it will be on my record, but there will not be any points associated with it.

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Obviously good for your violation point count... Likely bad for your insurance as it can still be seen by your insurance depending on how long it stays on your record and how often they review it.

You're free to take a crack at it to see if you can get it dismissed in court! But just so you know, California does offer the traffic school program option (considering you are out of state, you should check with the court to see whether they allow for such a course to be taken online). You will still have to pay the fine + penalties and assessments, PLUS the traffic school fee to both the court and the traffic school; however, the citation is dismissed assuming that the court receives the completion certificate from the school in a timely manner.

Good luck!

So if this was US 80 in placer county, you will be visiting Judge at the Santucci Justice center in Roseville, Superior court traffic division.

This court does not play fair.

If an officer submits any TBD, the case is "guilty". Even if the exact same legal case is presented and upheld in a de novo trial, it is 100% Law Enforcement with the written declarations. (I wonder if even some cases are 'guilty' without an officer TR235??? Hmmm?)

The court will 'hide' the TBD (officers TR-235) from the defendant until the de novo trial is complete. Request all you want- denied.

I would not waste much time with any issue that involves the court evaluating evidence- he will always construe it in a way that supports the officer. Only chance is an error on calibrations, error on responding to subpoena, officer no show, etc AND your argument at trial such that an appeal would overturn the guilty...only then do you have a chance.

It is a poster child for traffic court abuse.

In CHP lingo, these are speed teams and perfectly legit and common. Speed teams are not speed traps.

The Radar/Lidar guy is the arresting officer and the chase guy is the citing officer.

Both officers will appear/respond in either TBD /trial and will appear/respond in well over 95% of the case.. they will both testify to their part in nailing you and they WILL convict you.

They will testify to their training, annual recertification, and experience. They will testify to perfectly preparing the equipment as pre-shift routine. They will testify (especially the radar guy) that they visually estimated you doing such and such and then turned on their radar and radar'd you doing such and such, confirming their visual estimation of your speed. ..So now they have TWO verified tested methods of catching you.. then theres whatever the citing officer saw.

If they convince a judge you were doing 66 youre done. That is the issue before the court. Were you doing 66+ or not? Little citation errors that you allege are wrong mean nothing to that base question. The rest is about how much to increase your fine if you get convicted over 15+ the limit. 83 mph is A LOT more expensive than 75.

Speed surveys are a waste of time in a 65 zone, they mean nothing.


Your witness list is a waste of time, both officers listed on your ticket is your witness list, but you can ask for whatever you want. Thats twice more than they need to you. Hopefully there arent three of em.

Manuals and all that garbage wont work on the CHP, it's old hat.

In my experience the CHP show up with what they need to convict you before the judge they know they are seeing, because they've convicted a 100 just like you before this same judge. So the certs, radar stuff will be brought by the officers or they will talk about their tuning and certs inthe TBD.. but other than that, the CHP will gladly "sell you" .. err provide you discovery of any of this stuff you want. FOIA (whoever suggested tat) means nothing here. You just go to the CHP or call them and submit what you want in their format for the stuff or you can get a subpoena. Either way they are going to want money.

The deck is stacked friend. Have no doubt about that. All the fightyourticket.com stuff of bunk in a speed ticket like this vs the CHP. Youre only hope is having twice the chance of a miracle nonappearance by an officer.

Any constitutionalist mumbo jumbo that comes along as "advice" wont work either.

So theres a dose of reality as you prepare for your case. If you had even a decent chance, I'd tell you. ... but you dont. I would suggest TBD and then a trial de novo... might as well have two bites at the apple. Good luck!

adam_12 said:

The court will 'hide' the TBD (officers TR-235) from the defendant until the de novo trial is complete. Request all you want- denied.

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That's because it's absolutely irrelevant with regard to the new trial (trial de novo). The TBD is gone - like it never happened.

adam_12 said:

The court will 'hide' the TBD (officers TR-235) from the defendant until the de novo trial is complete. Request all you want- denied.

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Just as a side note on the small chance you are correct: if he requests it and is denied it, that should be documented and done on the record and that would be an appealable unconstitutional issue. Court records are open to the public unless confidentiality is required by law (CRC 2.550) There is no law supporting making that a confidential document; it is not statutorily confidential... so if that is true, that may be helpful info for when he is found guilty and if someone knowledgeable in the law prepared an appeal.

Not to mention, that is definitely not true in all counties...

That would be a GRAVE unconstitutional abuse by that local court to deny the public access to a peace officers trial statement in a conviction and I personally do not believe you are correct.. but who knows what abuses go on.. some courts also illegally deny TVS just for fighting a ticket, so I'm aware there are abuses. Admittedly, the abuse you allege runs afoul of the very founding of our country and the public's right to access the courts.

Zigner said:

That's because it's absolutely irrelevant with regard to the new trial (trial de novo). The TBD is gone - like it never happened.

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That court document is statutorily retained and is open for public inspection for 3 years MINIMUM so you are not correct at all.

StevenJ_420Law said:

That court document is statutorily retained and is open for public inspection for 3 years MINIMUM so you are not correct at all.

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Through the "discovery" process?

Zigner said:

Through the "discovery" process?

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No, and before you ask, you dont use the FOIA either.

It always amazes me how you dont accidentally learn stuff as much as you heckle around this forum. So long here, so many posts.... yet nothing . Youre a miracle.

These records are retained by the court (of record). Its not a discovery issue. You just get it from the clerk. And in the very unlikely event this court has made officer testimony confidential in a conviction, I would file a motion and a judicial complaint.




FOR OP:

You know what OP, since you do have some word on thatt county and that judge, just in case... I would dump that judge. Why use him when you know? But you have to do it before he makes a ruling on your case or its untimely and stricken.

I would find out that judges name, google 170.6 CCP and disqualify that judge in writing using the language 170.6 CCP tells you to use. Copy / paste it to pleading paper and fill in the blanks. Simple. No need to use that judge when you've gotten some word on him. When I post bail, at the ssame time I would file the 170.6 and that judge is gone and no longer part of the discussion.

170's are a daily common thing so dont worry about doing it. Its how its done. It doesnt tick of the other judges in fact the retired temp judge is happy you gave him work and he gets to get out of his house and away from his wife; in fact you have a slightly better chance with them in this dead on balls case.

Thanks for the info. First off, I've never received a speeding ticket from the CHP, and I've never fought a speeding ticket in general (only have had 2 tickets, incl. this one, in the past 9 years), so I'm totally uneducated about all this. Second, I was going over the limit, just not what they clocked me at. Is it totally worthless to hope that if I go to the first appearance (I guess it is the arraignment) and plead not guilty, that I may be able to work a deal with the DA? Other folks I know that have gone to fight a ticket have had this experience - after their plea, the DA approaches them and asks if they'd like to cut a deal. I don't necessarily want to fight it to pretend like it never happened, just try to get it reduced......and possibly the option of going to traffic school (they only other ticket I got was in August 2009 so I'm within the 12 month period for going only once).

LTKS said:

Second, I was going over the limit, just not what they clocked me at.

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Point is, you were cited for exceeding the absolute Maximum speed on that highway... So unless you're able to get the officer's speed measurement and visual estimate (highly unlikely that you'll be able to accomplish both) then the end result will be the same ... "guilty"!

LTKS said:

Is it totally worthless to hope that if I go to the first appearance (I guess it is the arraignment) and plead not guilty, that I may be able to work a deal with the DA?

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I doubt the DA will be there... Not in California (not in any of the courts I've been to) and certainly not for a traffic infraction.

LTKS said:

Other folks I know that have gone to fight a ticket have had this experience - after their plea, the DA approaches them and asks if they'd like to cut a deal.

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Might work in other states but not in California!

LTKS said:

I don't necessarily want to fight it to pretend like it never happened, just try to get it reduced......

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You can ask for a fine reduction at the arraignment. No guarantee you'll get it but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

LTKS said:

and possibly the option of going to traffic school (they only other ticket I got was in August 2009 so I'm within the 12 month period for going only once).

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I'm not clear on where you received that citation in August of 2009, but your traffic school eligibility is based upon whether you've attended traffic school for a citation that you received in California during the 18 months preceding the date of this citation. Your courtesy notice will tell you whether you're eligible or not.