Sold a 77 Ford F100 - what do I do?

frogfrog · Oct 7, 2010

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
Indiana,

I recently bought a 77 F100 knowing it had issues. Leaking oil, speedometer broke, slips out of park, rust everywhere... nice tires though. I bought it for this years hunting season. I picked it up from an individual for $1200 cash. Driving it home I decided I hated it (wife hated it)and wouldn't have enough time to fix the issues before November 6. So on my way home (the same day as I purchased it) I drove it straight to a parking lot and put a for sale sign on it. Recieved lots of interest. 2 offers at $800, 1 offer at $1000. Everyone that looked at the car was told the same information the previous owner told me(which to my limited mechanical knowledge was correct). This past Friday I recieved another offer for $1000, which I agreed to although he wouldn't have the money until the following Tuesday. I received several calls on it that weekend. Three Sunday and showed it once on Sunday. After the showing I recieved a call from a female asking if I would take $1100 for it. I asked her if she was aware of the issues with the truck and she said yes. I then asked her if she was offering me $1100 or asking if I would take $1100. She said offering. I said yes. She wanted to make the transaction the next day-Monday. I work all day Mondays. My wife agreed to meet her. My wife asked her if she had seen the truck before and knew of its issues. She said yes. She game my wife the money and my wife gave her the key and the title (which was never transferred from the previous owners name). That after noon the girl called me back and said she made a mistake in buying the vehicle and asked if she could return it. I told her I would talk to my wife that night and if the vehicle was in the same condition as I left and my wife agreed to it I would. I called and spoke to her mother that night who told me that the girl ran it into the ground and its not drivable (?). I said I could not buy back the vehicle if the engine was blown. Now they're threating a law suit and harrassing us by calling and leaving threating messages. We changed our numbers yesterday. Can we be sued or do we have to worry about losing a law suit? Thanks in advance for reading a long story. J

justalayman · Oct 7, 2010

you might as well find out what she did to the truck. You had no legal right to sell the vehicle with a title until you had the title in your name.

If she damaged the vehicle, you can claim against her for the damages but other than that, she has a right to rescind the sale unless you can transfer title to her.

antrc170 · Oct 7, 2010

You do not have to take the vehicle back, and if she wrecked it, I sure wouldn't. Although it would have been smart to title the vehicle you don't necessarily have to title it to sell it. According to the Indiana DMV website, you have 31 days from the time of purchase to title the vehicle. If you sell it before that time you are acting as an intermediary between the person you bought it from and the person you sold it to. There is a place on the title to fill in information transferring the right to title the vehicle.

xylene · Oct 7, 2010

antrc170 said:
You do not have to take the vehicle back, and if she wrecked it, I sure wouldn't. Although it would have been smart to title the vehicle you don't necessarily have to title it to sell it. According to the Indiana DMV website, you have 31 days from the time of purchase to title the vehicle. If you sell it before that time you are acting as an intermediary between the person you bought it from and the person you sold it to. There is a place on the title to fill in information transferring the right to title the vehicle.

The poster still needs to pay the the proper sale tax and file with the state.

justalayman · Oct 7, 2010

antrc170;2663672]You do not have to take the vehicle back, and if she wrecked it, I sure wouldn't. Although it would have been smart to title the vehicle you don't necessarily have to title it to sell it. According to the Indiana DMV website, you have 31 days from the time of purchase to title the vehicle. If you sell it before that time you are acting as an intermediary between the person you bought it from and the person you sold it to. There is a place on the title to fill in information transferring the right to title the vehicle.

could you link that? If they currently allow it, it is more recent than the last time I bought or sold a car in Indiana. Personally, I think you are wrong but I will accept being corrected, if I'm wrong.

frogfrog · Oct 7, 2010

Next Move...

I see my mistake... They feel they have been wronged and want there money back, But there's no way they would pay to have the engine rebuilt if that is indeed what happened, its not worth $1100. I guess I need to wait to be served and find a lawyer to take the case, even then I've already agreed to take the truck back but not in the condition that it is now, and they wont pay to have if fixed because again, they believe they have been wronged.... Its sickening... I have gone on and written down everything about the truck and situation I can remember along with the history of phone calls on my phone.....when your wife tells you not to buy something.... listen to her.

Oh, ya... That night that I told the mother I couldn't buy back the truck if the engine was blown the father called me minutes after.. I let it go to voicemail and he stated his name and said he was with the Indiana State Police and that I needed to call him immediately or suffer the consequences.

justalayman · Oct 7, 2010

frogfrog said:
said he was with the Indiana State Police and that I needed to call him immediately or suffer the consequences.

maybe he is. That generally isn't too difficult to figure out but it really doesn't make much difference.

Since antrc hasn't come back to support his claim that you can do a pass through transfer, I'll take it I am correct. So, since you did not have title to the vehicle, you could not transfer title to the next person in line. Due to that, she has the right to rescind the sale. That means, if she brings it back in the same condition she bought it in, you need to give her the money back. If there is damage, then you can argue for the value of the damage being owed to you.

Hiring a lawyer for this is likely not worth it. You can use an attorney in small claims court in Indiana but it is going to cost you as much as what you risk losing, and you will likely lose, in a best case scenario.

xylene · Oct 8, 2010

If dad is claiming to be a trooper and isn't that is a crime.

If dad is a trooper and is threatening to arrest or prosecute you solely to coerce you into an action that benefits him or his kin, that maybe a crime, and is certainly serious misconduct which his supervisors would want to know about.

antrc170 · Oct 8, 2010

justalayman said:
maybe he is. That generally isn't too difficult to figure out but it really doesn't make much difference.

Since antrc hasn't come back to support his claim that you can do a pass through transfer, I'll take it I am correct. So, since you did not have title to the vehicle, you could not transfer title to the next person in line. Due to that, she has the right to rescind the sale. That means, if she brings it back in the same condition she bought it in, you need to give her the money back. If there is damage, then you can argue for the value of the damage being owed to you.

Hiring a lawyer for this is likely not worth it. You can use an attorney in small claims court in Indiana but it is going to cost you as much as what you risk losing, and you will likely lose, in a best case scenario.

Sorry that I don't have time to answer to your every whim.

AFter reviewing the the DMV regs on titling in Indiana I can now see there are two major issues with the sale.
1- The OP should have kept the title and had it re-done in his name before passing it to the next buyer.
2- Indiana requires a bill of sale to title a privately sold used vehicle.

Because of these errors the OP needs to take the vehicle back and negotiate for damages to the vehicle, or take to small claims if need be.

However, there is nothing the prohibits buyer A from purchasing a car, and selling it to buyer B before it is titled. Buyer A would transfer possession of the car and ownership to Buyer B. Buyer A would title the vehicle and then present the new title to Buyer B according to their selling contract.

So, I will admit that concerning the OP's exact situation I misunderstood and was therefore incorrect. However, according to the overall situation there is nothing preventign the situation as I explained above. The title is just paperwork and can follow the actual possession and sale of a motor vehicle.

justalayman · Oct 8, 2010

antrc170;2664173]Sorry that I don't have time to answer to your every whim.

my every whim? You were giving very incorrect information and that incorrect info affected the OP directly, and severely.

1- The OP should have kept the title and had it re-done in his name before passing it to the next buyer.

OH, ya mean like I said, which is in direct contrast to what you said.

Because of these errors the OP needs to take the vehicle back and negotiate for damages to the vehicle, or take to small claims if need be.

OH, just like I said.

However, there is nothing the prohibits buyer A from purchasing a car, and selling it to buyer B before it is titled. Buyer A would transfer possession of the car and ownership to Buyer B. Buyer A would title the vehicle and then present the new title to Buyer B according to their selling contract.

well, this is where you are wrong. If a person cannot transfer title to a buyer, they legally cannot sell the vehicle unless the vehicle is specifically sold as a vehicle with no title. (scrap, parts, salvage, whatever and even then there are laws that limit this)

So, I will admit that concerning the OP's exact situation I misunderstood and was therefore incorrect

yes, you were, and still are in at least one aspect, incorrect.

The title is just paperwork and can follow the actual possession and sale of a motor vehicle.

again, you are wrong. the title is proof of ownership. Without that proof, you cannot sell the title because you don't hold title. That is why there are no pass through provisions on an Indiana title. So, basically, right now, the buyer can come back and say "give me the title or rescind the sale". If the seller cannot deliver title (and that isn't just the paper that represents title but actual conveyance of ownership, which in Indiana, is evidenced by delivering the state issued title, appropriately signed by the seller), he had no legal right to sell the vehicle.

just how would you suggest the last buyer comply with this requirement (from the Indiana BMV website):

If you have recently purchased a vehicle with an Indiana title, or received as a gift a vehicle with an Indiana title, you must must title it in your own name within 31 days of purchasing or receiving it.

(they have "must must" on the site so I suppose they really mean it

)

antrc170 · Oct 8, 2010

justalayman -

of course you can sell the vehicle without the title. in fact, Indiana bmv addresses that case very explicitly when buying a vehicle through a dealership. they have 21 days to send the title to the new buyer. are you suggeting that if a vehicle is bought through a dealer it can be returned in a week for a full refund? No, because there is a contract that states the title will follow in a specified amount of time.

Because the bmv does not address the situation with a private buyer, it does not prohibit a private sale from entering into the same type of contract. so there is no requirement that the paperwork from the sale be completed at the time of sale. it must be completed before the final buyer can title the vehicle. if the private parties have a contract to address that issue, that is a seperate issue that the bmv does not take issue with.

I_Got_Banned · Oct 8, 2010

antrc170 said:
in fact, Indiana bmv addresses that case very explicitly when buying a vehicle through a dealership. they have 21 days to send the title to the new buyer.

Rules are different for dealer transfers...

This is not a dealer to consumer sale. This is a private party sale.

justalayman · Oct 8, 2010

Buying through a dealership specifically allows a pass through sale with the dealer not required to obtain title in their name. That is not an option with a private sale.

Because the bmv does not address the situation with a private buyer, it does not prohibit a private sale from entering into the same type of contract

they do address the situation. You just want to make up what you want to try to defend you being incorrect.

so there is no requirement that the paperwork from the sale be completed at the time of sale. it must be completed before the final buyer can title the vehicle. if the private parties have a contract to address that issue, that is a seperate issue that the bmv does not take issue with

if the paperwork from the sale is not completed, the sale is not complete. A seller cannot transfer something they do not have. It really is that simple.

antrc170 · Oct 8, 2010

justalayman said:
Buying through a dealership specifically allows a pass through sale with the dealer not required to obtain title in their name. That is not an option with a private sale.

they do address the situation. You just want to make up what you want to try to defend you being incorrect.

No, they don't address the issue. There is nothing that bars private party individuals from entering into private contracts concerning the sale of a motor vehicle with title to be delivered upon process through the state bmv. The bmv specifically addresses it will dealers is because some dealers are associated with the bmv and can title the vehicle for you at the time of purchase as a courtesy (and probably to save on fees). The bmv gives a timeframe on how fast the dealership is to respond in getting the title to the buyer.

Click to expand...

justalayman · Oct 8, 2010

No, they don't address the issue. There is nothing that bars private party individuals from entering into private contracts concerning the sale of a motor vehicle with title to be delivered upon process through the state bmv. The bmv specifically addresses it will dealers is because some dealers are associated with the bmv and can title the vehicle for you at the time of purchase as a courtesy (and probably to save on fees). The bmv gives a timeframe on how fast the dealership is to respond in getting the title to the buyer.

fine, if you want to continue to argue your erroneous position:

selling a vehicle you do not legally own but will own (or presumably so) is called selling a future interest. It has an entirely different set of rules. The rules of selling vehicles does not apply because you are not selling the vehicle, you are selling your future interest in the vehicle.

since the OP in this thread did not agree to buying a future interest, the rules that apply to such sales have no place in this discussion.

in Indiana, to sell a vehicle, you must hold legal title to it. The only legally acceptable means of transferring legal interest in a vehicle is by signing the certificate of title as "seller". Since the OP does not have a title listing him as owner, he cannot provide the required certificate of title with his signature under "seller". So, not only can he not provide such, he doesn't have such locked away somewhere.

Therefore, he cannot legally sell the truck. Therefore, the contract entered into has not been executed and is subject to being voided at the buyers or sellers demand.

Once a contract is fully executed, neither party has the right to rescind the contract.

still want to argue (your losing position)?

Sold a 77 Ford F100 - what do I do?

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