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How Can A Religious Divorce Become Civil Divorce?

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Sgt Slaughter

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New York

Hello,

My close friend, a Muslim, has married a foreign national (also Muslim) in New York under NY law. After only 6 months, she left NY to go back to her parents in her country while pregnant. When my friend asked her to return, she refused and had the child in her country. Later, a Muslim religious board verdict dissolved the marriage and set dowry installments (alimony/child support), which was regularly paid by my friend.

First, is this verdict from a religious authority valid under US law?

Second, can he can get a civil divorce on the basis of religious divorce OR get an official government recognition of the religious divorce?
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New York

Hello,

My close friend, a Muslim, has married a foreign national (also Muslim) in New York under NY law. After only 6 months, she left NY to go back to her parents in her country while pregnant. When my friend asked her to return, she refused and had the child in her country. Later, a Muslim religious board verdict dissolved the marriage and set dowry installments (alimony/child support), which was regularly paid by my friend.

First, is this verdict from a religious authority valid under US law?

Second, can he can get a civil divorce on the basis of religious divorce OR get an official government recognition of the religious divorce?
If the divorce was a legal divorce in the country where it happened, then the US will recognize it.
 

nextwife

Senior Member
Yes, but dowry, CS and alimony requirements may be unenforceable in the US. OP needs to see an attorney.
Indeed. Alimony for a 6 MONTH marriage is certainly challengable. The religious "court" involved may not have any legal jurisdiction. Certainly dad can and should pay CS, but alimony and "dowry"? C'mon!

And CS according to WHAT calculator? Is mom expected to contribute? etc.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Yes, but dowry, CS and alimony requirements may be unenforceable in the US. OP needs to see an attorney.
I was talking about the actual divorce, the fact that he is no longer legally married.

Its true that the US may not help with the enforcement of CS and alimony, but it sounds to me like he has been willingly paying what was ordered.
 

nextwife

Senior Member
but it sounds to me like he has been willingly paying what was ordered.
And maybe he's no longer able or willing to do so. One's obligation to support a spouse of a six month marriage should certainly be finite. Six months of such support is way more than she'd likely have recieved here, and if he's paid LONGER than that he's been more than fair after she ran off with his child!
 
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mistoffolees

Senior Member
Indeed. Alimony for a 6 MONTH marriage is certainly challengable. The religious "court" involved may not have any legal jurisdiction. Certainly dad can and should pay CS, but alimony and "dowry"? C'mon!

And CS according to WHAT calculator? Is mom expected to contribute? etc.
Even though he should be paying CS, he should find a way to ensure that it'd done via a VALID court order. Otherwise, he could pay CS for years and find that it has only been a gift.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Even though he should be paying CS, he should find a way to ensure that it'd done via a VALID court order. Otherwise, he could pay CS for years and find that it has only been a gift.
Not in this instance. US law doesn't apply here so the issue of whether it is or isn't a gift is moot.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Indeed. Alimony for a 6 MONTH marriage is certainly challengable. The religious "court" involved may not have any legal jurisdiction. Certainly dad can and should pay CS, but alimony and "dowry"? C'mon!

And CS according to WHAT calculator? Is mom expected to contribute? etc.
CS according to the "calculator" in use in the country where the orders came from.

Dowry could possibly be something quite different than what you are thinking. In some Muslim countries its customary for the parents of the bride to pay a "dowry" to the groom upon the marriage. Then if there is a divorce its possible that the dowry can be ordered to be repaid to either the wife or the wife's family. That is what could be meant by dowry payments.

Remember, other countries have different laws and customs than the US has.
 

mistoffolees

Senior Member
Not in this instance. US law doesn't apply here so the issue of whether it is or isn't a gift is moot.
Actually, it's not moot.

If he stays in the U.S., then the Muslim country will probably not be able to ever collect any of the money that ex wants. The only way she'll be able to collect is to file for CS in the U.S. If that happens, the money he has been giving is a gift. If he proactively gets a court order in place, he'll get credit for it.

Of course, it may never happen, but it could.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Actually, it's not moot.

If he stays in the U.S., then the Muslim country will probably not be able to ever collect any of the money that ex wants. The only way she'll be able to collect is to file for CS in the U.S. If that happens, the money he has been giving is a gift. If he proactively gets a court order in place, he'll get credit for it.

Of course, it may never happen, but it could.
While I see your point, a US state court would have no motivation to give any kind of retroactive support to a non-resident/non-citizen of the US. So again, the question of whether or not past support was a gift or not, is kind of moot.
Even more so if the guy can demonstrate that he has been paying whatever the other country ordered him to pay.

There is also a really decent chance that what the other country has ordered him to pay is less than what US guidelines would call for.

Do you realize that inadvertently you are encouraging this guy to not support his child or repay the dowry?
 

mistoffolees

Senior Member
While I see your point, a US state court would have no motivation to give any kind of retroactive support to a non-resident/non-citizen of the US. So again, the question of whether or not past support was a gift or not, is kind of moot.
Even more so if the guy can demonstrate that he has been paying whatever the other country ordered him to pay.
Really? So you are now able to predict what every judge in every one of the 50 states would decide?

Amazing.

There are plenty of cases where support is ordered retroactively, certainly from the date of filing.

There is also a really decent chance that what the other country has ordered him to pay is less than what US guidelines would call for.
That may be. Seems to me that YOU are the one now suggesting that he should pay a lower amount if the other country allows it. Rather funny considering that you're accusing me of trying to get him to shirk his duties.

I would suggest that he should be paying the necessary support wherever he lives. If he really wants to pay the lower amount, he could take that order into court and have just the CS portion affirmed (since the alimony and dowry are not in compliance with U.S. law), so it would be possible for him to get a court order for the amount that the other country is ordering.

Do you realize that inadvertently you are encouraging this guy to not support his child or repay the dowry?
Not support his child? As usual, you're making things up. I am encouraging him to support his child BUT GET A VALID COURT ORDER. It is interesting, though, that you specifically said he should accept the foreign CS order because it might be lower. Seems to me that YOU are the one suggesting that he try to cut his obligations.

Dowry? You're right about that. Slavery was outlawed in this country a century and a half ago. Dowry is an archaic custom that is completely outside the scope of U.S. law and he has no legal obligation to repay it. PARTICULARLY since she's the one who ran off and decided that she didn't want to be married.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Really? So you are now able to predict what every judge in every one of the 50 states would decide?

Amazing.
My response did not remotely state that I knew what every judge in every state would decide. I made a reasonable statement based on the international scope of this case.

There are plenty of cases where support is ordered retroactively, certainly from the date of filing.
Of course there are. US cases. This would not be a US case at this point as the US does not have jurisdiction over the matter because the child was born and resides in another country. The US would not have jurisdiction unless the mother asked the US courts for help. The mother would have no reason to ask the US courts for help if the father was paying according to the orders of her country. If mom decided to do it anyway (and I cannot see why) then as long as dad could prove that he was paying according to the valid orders of another country, the US court would have no jurisdiction regarding retroactive support.

That may be. Seems to me that YOU are the one now suggesting that he should pay a lower amount if the other country allows it. Rather funny considering that you're accusing me of trying to get him to shirk his duties.
I know that you know what "inadvertently" means. Why shouldn't he pay the amount that the country with jurisdiction orders? That order would be based on the standard of living in that country.

I would suggest that he should be paying the necessary support wherever he lives. If he really wants to pay the lower amount, he could take that order into court and have just the CS portion affirmed (since the alimony and dowry are not in compliance with U.S. law), so it would be possible for him to get a court order for the amount that the other country is ordering.
I don't believe that he can do that even if he wanted to do that. The US courts don't have any jurisdiction over this matter as the child was born and resides in another country. Maybe a judge would go ahead and make the order anyway, even without jurisdiction because it would harm no one, but maybe the judge would simply dismiss the case for lack of jurisdiction.

Not support his child? As usual, you're making things up. I am encouraging him to support his child BUT GET A VALID COURT ORDER. It is interesting, though, that you specifically said he should accept the foreign CS order because it might be lower. Seems to me that YOU are the one suggesting that he try to cut his obligations.
I made nothing up. I simply pointed out that you were inadvertently giving the guy the impression that he had a way to avoid supporting his child unless the mother brought the case to the US.

Dowry? You're right about that. Slavery was outlawed in this country a century and a half ago. Dowry is an archaic custom that is completely outside the scope of U.S. law and he has no legal obligation to repay it. PARTICULARLY since she's the one who ran off and decided that she didn't want to be married.
I think that countries where a dowry is still a custom would be a bit offended by you comparing a dowry to slavery. Dowries were still very much a custom in Great Britain not much more than 100 years ago, and I am pretty sure that slavery ended there long before it ended in the US.

If he is a devout Muslim he might have a religious obligation to repay it that would be outside the scope of US law/US mores.

Of course if you are going to focus on US laws in a situation where they probably don't apply, then 1/2 of that dowry, at least, is marital property and belongs to her anyway.
 

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