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Church Ethics Question

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Mark5454

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California.



I had some musical instruments stolen from my church that belonged to me but I used almost exclusively for the church. The church had some items stolen at the same time. The church's insurance covers personal items and after the usual depreciation the church was issued a check. I found out later that the church used a percent of the insurance money for my specific items to pay it's deductible. The amount of money from my items going toward the deductible was nearly $500.

To my knowledge there is no official policy at the church regarding my obligation to help pay the deductible, had they asked I would have voluntarily said yes but I'm not sure if what they did was legal.

Thanks in advance
 


latigo

Senior Member
. . . To my knowledge there is no official policy at the church regarding my obligation to help pay the deductible, . .
Well, suppose that you did have knowledge of such an “official church policy”? You can’t be so gullible as to believe that it could arbitrarily impose such a financial obligation upon you or any other innocent member.

If the church suffered a covered loss, say due to a fire, could they hold you responsible to make the church whole by paying the deductible?

Someone in this organization is knowingly guilty of a serious felony. And I say knowingly because some one has admitted to you that property that was not owned by the church was falsely included in the loss claim in order to offset the $500 deductible!
 

ecmst12

Senior Member
If this was your property, you should have claimed it on YOUR insurance - it never should have been included on the church's claim since it was not their property.
 

Mark5454

Junior Member
Well, suppose that you did have knowledge of such an “official church policy”? You can’t be so gullible as to believe that it could arbitrarily impose such a financial obligation upon you or any other innocent member.

If the church suffered a covered loss, say due to a fire, could they hold you responsible to make the church whole by paying the deductible?

Someone in this organization is knowingly guilty of a serious felony. And I say knowingly because some one has admitted to you that property that was not owned by the church was falsely included in the loss claim in order to offset the $500 deductible!
It seems the church treasurer met with the elders and they decided that my items were stolen as a result of my negligence and even though their insurance covers the items the deductible was to be shared based on what percentage of the claim each party had. Since my items were more valuable than what the church had stolen, I ended up paying most of the deductible. Months earlier the church had it's laptop stolen that runs the projection software for the service. They didn't replace it so I used my own so the service could continue as it had been accustomed. During that next break-in months later my laptop and guitars were stole and one of the guitars was locked in a separate room. I understand that I should have been taking them home every time but I still think since the insurance company paid for what I claimed why should incur further loss for trying to help.
 
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Mark5454

Junior Member
If this was your property, you should have claimed it on YOUR insurance - it never should have been included on the church's claim since it was not their property.
The items being used at least 2 or 3 times a week to fill the void left from the previous theft and I checked and there is no official church policy in place. It seems like the treasurer presented a sheet of paper with a breakdown of what each item was and what percentage was going to held back for the deductible and it was approved. Another member lost a PA system in the theft the church used regularly also and he received a check minus the deduction as well. Also nothing has been done to prevent further break-in.

Thanks for your replys
 

latigo

Senior Member
What is most troubling with your posts is this statement:

. . . the church treasurer (and) the elders decided that my items (were covered) through their insurance
On what basis did the church claim an insurable interest in property that belonged to you?

I ask the question because of a fundamental principle of insurance law that says that in order to be compensated for loss or damage to property, the insured party must have a recognizable insurable interest in the property.

And here you have indicated nothing that would point to the church as having such an insurable interest.

I would be directing some serious question so these church officials. In fact I wouldn’t just be asking, I’d confront them.

Because if they have falsified the loss claim, you could become implicated by accepting a portion of the insurance proceeds.
_______________________________

And let me add this as what I see as strong evidence that the Elders filed a false insurance claim.

According to you -- the Elders told you that it was due to your "negligence" that the items were at the church at the time of the theft.

Were they not in effect telling you, “We are absolving the church of any responsibility for your stolen property. It was your risk and not that of the church”?

If the church had nothing at risk with respect to those items, then it had no risk to insure against!
 

Trickster

Member
Another CLASSIC reason I gave up on church long ago. Remember, the same people that wrote the Bible also said the world was flat.
 

Mark5454

Junior Member
What is most troubling with your posts is this statement:



On what basis did the church claim an insurable interest in property that belonged to you?

I ask the question because of a fundamental principle of insurance law that says that in order to be compensated for loss or damage to property, the insured party must have a recognizable insurable interest in the property.

And here you have indicated nothing that would point to the church as having such an insurable interest.

I would be directing some serious question so these church officials. In fact I wouldn’t just be asking, I’d confront them.

Because if they have falsified the loss claim, you could become implicated by accepting a portion of the insurance proceeds.
_______________________________

And let me add this as what I see as strong evidence that the Elders filed a false insurance claim.

According to you -- the Elders told you that it was due to your "negligence" that the items were at the church at the time of the theft.

Were they not in effect telling you, “We are absolving the church of any responsibility for your stolen property. It was your risk and not that of the church”? Correct

If the church had nothing at risk with respect to those items, then it had no risk to insure against!
I agree. Why carry that option on the policy?

The church in essence did say that they weren't assuming risk when they only paid a percentage of the deductible based on the church's loss. They did pay the premiums though for a policy which cover members personal property so there is some conflict. I have re-read you reply and I see your point clearly now. The church's later action indicate they wish to have no responsibility for personal negligence and yet they filed a claim on our behalf, those 2 positions aren't reconcilable. Either don't file a claim or recognize the church's interest in the members personal property fully. I hope I'm getting your point.
 

Mark5454

Junior Member
Another CLASSIC reason I gave up on church long ago. Remember, the same people that wrote the Bible also said the world was flat.
It's not the church is the people:). The funny thing is the elder who is handling this is a fraud investigator for a very large bank and really prides himself on the letter of the law.
 

Mark5454

Junior Member
What is most troubling with your posts is this statement:



On what basis did the church claim an insurable interest in property that belonged to you?

I ask the question because of a fundamental principle of insurance law that says that in order to be compensated for loss or damage to property, the insured party must have a recognizable insurable interest in the property.

And here you have indicated nothing that would point to the church as having such an insurable interest.

I would be directing some serious question so these church officials. In fact I wouldn’t just be asking, I’d confront them.

Because if they have falsified the loss claim, you could become implicated by accepting a portion of the insurance proceeds.
_______________________________

And let me add this as what I see as strong evidence that the Elders filed a false insurance claim.

According to you -- the Elders told you that it was due to your "negligence" that the items were at the church at the time of the theft.

Were they not in effect telling you, “We are absolving the church of any responsibility for your stolen property. It was your risk and not that of the church”?

If the church had nothing at risk with respect to those items, then it had no risk to insure against!
Thank you for your responses. The matter is currently being discussed after I let them know of my concerns. The treasurer was trying to say that the insurance company took the deductible out from everyone equally just because the deductible was taken out from the 1 check that included everyone's compensation. I told him it didn't matter how the insurance took the deductible the church was exercising control over the funds. I went round and round but he just couldn't see it and being a fraud investigator himself this was very troubling. He has to know that this was wrong whether or not he feels the individuals were irresponsible is irrelevant.

Thanks again for your help and I will post their decision.
 

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