Probable Cause for traffic stop...

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

I was driving in Orlando this morning. I am Black and I drive a 1989 Chevy Blazer, valid plates..with rear window with plastic sealing it as the was an attempted break-in of the truck and rear window was busted out.
I passed Orange County Sheriff going in opposite direction. Officer does u-turn and approaches my vehicle as I was at red light. Officer stopped behind me and ran my plates. When light changed, officer turned lights on and pulled me over.
When asked why I was pulled over I was told "Brake light was out".
I informed officer this was impossible as I had just changed it.
Officer then tells me my license is coming as "Suspended"

I receive ticket for suspended license, of which I was UNAWARE, but NO TICKET FOR BRAKE LIGHT OUT...which was the STATED REASON FOR STOPPING ME.

Is this an ILLEGAL TRAFFIC STOP?

I dont have another $180 to pay to FL...and I showed officer that my brake light was working...officer NEVER WROTE TICKET FOR BRAKE LIGHT ANYWAY

Officer even acknowledged that he turned around because I was in older car around all the newer cars, palm beach county tags, etc., but NOT in "drug area" and acknowledged the rear window was LEGAL, plates were VALID..only AFTER running tags did he "DISCOVER" OWNER OF VEHICLE had suspended license...did not know the OWNER was the actual DRIVER when he stopped vehicle...

Do I have grounds to get ticket dismissed?

Sorry for length...Thank you

Is this an ILLEGAL TRAFFIC STOP?

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Sorry, nothing in your post suggests it was illegal. You don't have to be cited for the reason for the stop to be nabbed for something else. Ted Bundy, a notorious serial killer was stopped for a minor traffic violation and was arrested for the outstanding warrants for his arrest. He was never charged with a traffic offense. Using your reasoning, he should have been released.

While the case is not controlling in FL, it shows how a court can take these facts (Car with registered owner has suspended license as reasonable suspicion for investigation.) and say that is a good stop:

http://www.iowacourts.gov/supreme_court/recent_opinions/20101119/08-1762.pdf

So..it doesn't matter that the UNDERLYING grounds for ANY action was FALSE?

Officer can "ALLEGE" that "Brake light" was out..so he ran plates...plates came back as valid, but the "OWNER" of plates had suspended license...so officer pulls over vehicle...

So..even if "BRAKE LIGHTS" were NEVER "NON_FUNCTIONAL" and were clearly "WORKING" at all times, the stop was still "LEGAL"???

Please explain...not trying to be "dense" here, but this makes no sense to me...

If officer must have "probable" cause to stop...the initial stated reason, faulty brake light, was wrong/false/A LIE...but everything else is STILL LEGAL???

Also..officer did NOT even know I was the "OWNER" of the vehicle until AFTER he asked for and received my license...only that I was the OPERATOR at the time...
Still remains that he stopped me under false pretenses..and that doesn't matter???

I read the Iowa case...and the court ruled that taken the "totality of the circumstances", meaning the officer's prior contact, previous interaction with defendant, and reasonable suspicions...it was legal.

But..in this case there was NO REASONABLE SUSPICION of anything...the initial reason stated by officer was false...it was a pretext to pull me over once the tags were ran...the tags were ran solely because of my vehicle and my race...no traffic violation no equipment violation..and you guys are telling me the cops can do this at will? and it is LEGAL??? in the USA???

the tags were ran solely because of my vehicle

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You agreed to this when you paid your license fees. Technically, the plates on your vehicle belong to the state, not you.

and my race.

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Pure speculation on your part.

no traffic violation no equipment violation..and you guys are telling me the cops can do this at will? and it is LEGAL??? in the USA???

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Yes it's legal and you agreed to this when you obtained your license. You agreed to abide by the laws of the state when you got your license and with every renewal. That signature on your license isn't just for checking credit card receipts, it is the state's proof you agree with the requirements and laws to drive in that state. Even if you were to prove the original cause for the stop was not warranted, you are not going to prove that the officer had no right to verify that the registered owner of the vehicle had a suspended license and could very well be the operator of that vehicle.

The officer only requires reasonable suspicion to stop the vehicle, not probable cause. It's a lesser standard.

The officer does not need to articulate the reasonable suspicion to you, only to the court. Police are permitted to lie to you.

It appears that Florida has held that a vehicle owner having a suspended license is reasonable suspicion to stop the vehicle, unless the officer has determined that the operator is not the owner (due to race, gender, where there are two owners, or some other obvious characteristic).

• Bratcher v. State, 727 So. 2d 1114 (Fla. 5th DCA 1999)
• State v. Neptune, 15 Fla. L. Weekly Supp. 1163 (Fla. 17th Cir. Ct. Sept. 11, 2008)
• State v. Phelps, 13 Fla. L. Weekly Supp. 221 (Fla. 6th Cir. Ct. Oct. 25, 2005)

There are also Number Plate Recognition Systems available where a system can run every license plate visible to the camera and point out any deficiencies to the officer. Traffic cameras can notify the police that an unregistered, uninsured, uninspected car owned by unlicensed driver is operating.

Yours may very well be a case of being stopped for driving while black, but I don't think you'll ever prove it.

AnthonyStark201 said:

So..it doesn't matter that the UNDERLYING grounds for ANY action was FALSE?

Officer can "ALLEGE" that "Brake light" was out..so he ran plates...plates came back as valid, but the "OWNER" of plates had suspended license...so officer pulls over vehicle...

So..even if "BRAKE LIGHTS" were NEVER "NON_FUNCTIONAL" and were clearly "WORKING" at all times, the stop was still "LEGAL"???

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Most every jurisdiction in the US permits a license plate to be run without any reason, as doing so is NOT a search under the 4th AM.


The brake light reason is NOT material, whether a lie or not, as a plate can be run for any reason. I am assuming this is the case law in FL. I seriously doubt it is not, but have not conclusively researched it.

Please explain...not trying to be "dense" here, but this makes no sense to me...

If officer must have "probable" cause to stop...the initial stated reason, faulty brake light, was wrong/false/A LIE...but everything else is STILL LEGAL???

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Assuming the LP check is permitted in FL without reason, then as Steve points out, the stop does not violate the federal or FL constitutions.

AnthonyStark201 said:

Also..officer did NOT even know I was the "OWNER" of the vehicle until AFTER he asked for and received my license...only that I was the OPERATOR at the time...
Still remains that he stopped me under false pretenses..and that doesn't matter???

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If you can prove that the light was working at the time of the stop and that the officer could not have run your plates to find out your license status prior to contact, then you might have a chance of getting the evidence of the suspended license suppressed and the matter dismissed.

Proving that he lied about the brake light will be nearly impossible. Yes, he could just make it up ... not legally, but he could. However, unless this officer has a habit of randomly pulling people over for no real reason, that's not going to be an easy argument to make.

Well...

Interesting question and one that comes up all the time. Under the facts that you give, the officer would probably be found by a judge to have had reasonable suspicion that a traffic offense was being committed when he pulled you over, if he learned from the computer that the owner's D/L was suspended before pulling you over. Also, you never mention if you checked if the brake light was out after you got the ticket.

If the officer saw from his computer that the owner of the car has a suspended license, and if the driver fits the general description of the owner (male, black, similar age), then there is case law that says that is reasonable suspicion to stop the car to check the license. Also, if the brake light was out, the officer would legally be able to pull you over just for that.

The truth is, as you know, the officer's interest was drawn to you because of the nature of the car and your race...profiling. But, as long as all the officer did was follow you until he found some other, legal reason to stop you, the courts will allow it. The cops see it as good police work and the minorities that get pulled over more frequently see it as harrassment or worse.

Please talk to an attorney in your location about the DWLSR charge. There may be a way to avoid serious driver's license consequences down the road. Good luck.

You seem to be trying to make the case that you were stopped for "driving while black". Get out the phone book and talk to a few lawyers who offer a free initial consult. See what they think. I suspect that this will be an expensive way to beat a ticket unless the cops have been in the news a lot lately.

Good luck

Thanks to all who replied..a quick follow-up..

YES, I proved to officer immediately after he gave me ticket for DWSL and NO TICKET for brake light. I asked if I could exit vehicle, he said I could, and I showed him lights worked. This should be on the dash cam..if it was working.

And yes, I do feel it was racial profiling, and it has gone on for too long. I am obeying all the traffic laws and some cop can decide to "focus" on me..to the extent he does u-turn to come harass me...he was not sitting and I drove by, he was traveling in OPPOSITE direction and TURNED around just to screw with me..and why? Basically because I was BLACK. The fact that the first thing he said was "my brake light was out" was where he made mistake and verbally gave me b.s. "cause" for his interaction with me.

Now seriously, this is LEGAL in FL..or ANYWHERE in US? I realize PROVING this may be another matter entirely, but strictly speaking LEGAL here...???

...and 1 more thing..as for the "fit the general description" argument...

it was at 8:30 in the morning in Orlando, FL...deputy was traveling Southbound and I was traveling Northbound..so with SUN shining on this SUNNY COLD morning, deputy saw only BLACK driver in OLDER vehicle...he could NOT get CLEAR view of me in the driver's seat due to GLARE from sun as well as TINT on vehicle windows...

The deputy ASKED me IF I was owner of vehicle os was it someone elses, meaning he was not sure himself, which was why he FIRST stated he stopped me for "BRAKE LIGHT"...

AnthonyStark201 said:

...and 1 more thing..as for the "fit the general description" argument...

it was at 8:30 in the morning in Orlando, FL...deputy was traveling Southbound and I was traveling Northbound..so with SUN shining on this SUNNY COLD morning, deputy saw only BLACK driver in OLDER vehicle...he could NOT get CLEAR view of me in the driver's seat due to GLARE from sun as well as TINT on vehicle windows...

The deputy ASKED me IF I was owner of vehicle os was it someone elses, meaning he was not sure himself, which was why he FIRST stated he stopped me for "BRAKE LIGHT"...

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What you are not getting here, is 1. the police officer didnt have to give YOU any reason for the stop.

Police need no reason at all to run plates.

What do you think police officers / sheriff job is?

if your license was suspended when he wrote the ticket, then TA DA ! the ticket is valid and you are not getting out of it. you were driving with a suspended license. cop stoped you probably due to the plates comming up suspended license. you got a ticket for driving with a suspended license.

really not a huge thing to wrap your head around.