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my sister is an idoiot

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gr8rn

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

OK guys and girls, my sister is messing up royally in her divorce. I have tried telling her, even tried to get her here to read up on some of her issues, told her to google, nothing has helped. She is stubborn and a little stupid.

Here is her situation: she and her husband have separated. He moved in with a girlfriend and my sister is in the marital home. He had a lot of civil war memorabilia and numerous antiques in the house left to him by his grandfather. He wanted to be able to leave all the stuff to his sons. Custody and child/spousal support have been established, she is getting around $900 a month in spousal support and her mortgage was paid off prior to the split.

He also has an extensive gun collection.

She has been selling a lot of his stuff on ebay. Including his guns. Isn't that illegal? Who knows what kind of people she sold them to?

He recently waited for her to leave for the weekend, and his 19 year old son who has a key to the house, let him in and he took the rest of his guns before she sold them all.

SHE is mad at HIM, for taking marital property.

Is she an idiot or what? What kind of trouble can she get into for selling those guns? And wouldn't she get in trouble for selling the other stuff too? (marital property). They have a Masters meeting in a couple of months. I believe she will be in for a big surprise.

Thanks, I know this is not my issue directly, but I really want to let her know what she is in for.
 


mistoffolees

Senior Member
No, it's not your issue.

Marital property (if it really is marital) must be accounted for in the divorce. That's her problem, not yours.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

OK guys and girls, my sister is messing up royally in her divorce. I have tried telling her, even tried to get her here to read up on some of her issues, told her to google, nothing has helped. She is stubborn and a little stupid.

Here is her situation: she and her husband have separated. He moved in with a girlfriend and my sister is in the marital home. He had a lot of civil war memorabilia and numerous antiques in the house left to him by his grandfather. He wanted to be able to leave all the stuff to his sons. Custody and child/spousal support have been established, she is getting around $900 a month in spousal support and her mortgage was paid off prior to the split.

He also has an extensive gun collection.

She has been selling a lot of his stuff on ebay. Including his guns. Isn't that illegal? Who knows what kind of people she sold them to?

He recently waited for her to leave for the weekend, and his 19 year old son who has a key to the house, let him in and he took the rest of his guns before she sold them all.

SHE is mad at HIM, for taking marital property.

Is she an idiot or what? What kind of trouble can she get into for selling those guns? And wouldn't she get in trouble for selling the other stuff too? (marital property). They have a Masters meeting in a couple of months. I believe she will be in for a big surprise.

Thanks, I know this is not my issue directly, but I really want to let her know what she is in for.
As Misto said, she will have to account for everything that she sold...and those dollars will be factored into the final property settlement. Therefore, I hope that she got fair market value for them, because if she didn't, its could hurt.
 

nextwife

Senior Member
Agreed. If she is not getting what a knowledgable person familiar with the asset would pay, she may well be undervaluing the items and end of on the hook for the loss she created. She may be clueless of what she should be getting.
 

mistoffolees

Senior Member
Agreed. If she is not getting what a knowledgable person familiar with the asset would pay, she may well be undervaluing the items and end of on the hook for the loss she created. She may be clueless of what she should be getting.
Maybe. HOWEVER, one could make a very strong argument that whatever she gets on eBay is the correct price - if she's using the auction format (clearly, if she put it on as Buy it Now with a very low price, then it is undervalued).

The principle of fair market value is that it should be the price that a reasonable buyer would pay when there is no coercion or restriction on pricing. I would argue that if the none of the millions of eBay users are willing to pay more than $x, then $x is the fair market value. The premise of eBay is that the number of sellers is large enough that a fair price will be reached.

This breaks down for items that are SO rare and so specialized that a significant number of buyers don't go to eBay at any one time, but there are thousands of gun collectors on eBay, so it might be hard to prove that the exception applies.

Of course, that's not to say that she should be doing this, but it's not entirely clear that she is undervaluing them, either.

Edit:

I wasn't clear from my post, but I'm not saying she could do this or keep the money - she would obviously have to reimburse him for the value (if they're his separate property) or 1/2 of the value (if they're marital property). I'm simply pointing out that it is not quite so obvious that she'd get additional penalties for selling them for under their value.
 
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Ohiogal

Queen Bee
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

OK guys and girls, my sister is messing up royally in her divorce. I have tried telling her, even tried to get her here to read up on some of her issues, told her to google, nothing has helped. She is stubborn and a little stupid.

Here is her situation: she and her husband have separated. He moved in with a girlfriend and my sister is in the marital home. He had a lot of civil war memorabilia and numerous antiques in the house left to him by his grandfather. He wanted to be able to leave all the stuff to his sons. Custody and child/spousal support have been established, she is getting around $900 a month in spousal support and her mortgage was paid off prior to the split.

He also has an extensive gun collection.

She has been selling a lot of his stuff on ebay. Including his guns. Isn't that illegal? Who knows what kind of people she sold them to?

He recently waited for her to leave for the weekend, and his 19 year old son who has a key to the house, let him in and he took the rest of his guns before she sold them all.

SHE is mad at HIM, for taking marital property.

Is she an idiot or what? What kind of trouble can she get into for selling those guns? And wouldn't she get in trouble for selling the other stuff too? (marital property). They have a Masters meeting in a couple of months. I believe she will be in for a big surprise.

Thanks, I know this is not my issue directly, but I really want to let her know what she is in for.
She could be in trouble for dissipation of marital assets. She had no right to do that and could find that she will be paying him every dime that she received plus sanctioned for such behavior. Dissipation is normally against restraining orders issued and she could find herself in contempt of court and facing jail time as well.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
She could be in trouble for dissipation of marital assets. She had no right to do that and could find that she will be paying him every dime that she received plus sanctioned for such behavior. Dissipation is normally against restraining orders issued and she could find herself in contempt of court and facing jail time as well.
I don't disagree, but if she got fair market value and used the money for legitimate expenses it might not be quite that dire. It was still a very stupid thing to do and she is going to end up seriously regretting it, no matter what, but it might not be that dire.
 

nextwife

Senior Member
I don't disagree, but if she got fair market value and used the money for legitimate expenses it might not be quite that dire. It was still a very stupid thing to do and she is going to end up seriously regretting it, no matter what, but it might not be that dire.
It IS dire. These were not some old junky outdated electronics, or old formica furniture. These were collectables that he clearly wanted and planned to pass on to his sons. It was not her right to decide to dispose of them. And we do not know she did get fair market value. A too low Buy it Now or a short auction period may have limited the opportunity to get what one should get.


What if he had taken her jewelry and was selling it off to pay off some credit?

Additionally, many of THESE items were an inheritance from his Grandpa, so NOT marital property at all!
 
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Just Blue

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

OK guys and girls, my sister is messing up royally in her divorce. I have tried telling her, even tried to get her here to read up on some of her issues, told her to google, nothing has helped. She is stubborn and a little stupid.

Here is her situation: she and her husband have separated. He moved in with a girlfriend and my sister is in the marital home. He had a lot of civil war memorabilia and numerous antiques in the house left to him by his grandfather. He wanted to be able to leave all the stuff to his sons. Custody and child/spousal support have been established, she is getting around $900 a month in spousal support and her mortgage was paid off prior to the split.

He also has an extensive gun collection.

She has been selling a lot of his stuff on ebay. Including his guns. Isn't that illegal? Who knows what kind of people she sold them to?

He recently waited for her to leave for the weekend, and his 19 year old son who has a key to the house, let him in and he took the rest of his guns before she sold them all.

SHE is mad at HIM, for taking marital property.

Is she an idiot or what? What kind of trouble can she get into for selling those guns? And wouldn't she get in trouble for selling the other stuff too? (marital property). They have a Masters meeting in a couple of months. I believe she will be in for a big surprise.

Thanks, I know this is not my issue directly, but I really want to let her know what she is in for.

OG would know this MUCH better than I...BUT! I "think" if a crime is committed by the buyer of the firearms that she sold illegally, she "could" be held criminally or civilly responsible for what happens.

Yeah...Your sister is dumb.:(
 

nextwife

Senior Member
And if a crime is committed with that gun, like, heaven forbid, a law enforcment officer is hurt, she could be in REALLY big trouble.
 

gr8rn

Senior Member
I just realized I spelled idiot wrong...

Anyway, thank you for the replies. No, she isn't getting what the things are worth. Example, a very old coca cola machine, the kind that looks like a big freezer that you have to open the lid, she sold it for about $200. I know it has to be worth much more. My mother said it was worth thousands.

The antiques are one thing, but her husband has a lot of civil war memoribilia that should be in a museum, some of the documents would be considered priceless. Letters from famous people, stuff like that. I have never seen the stuff but my Mom said the house is full of it and the inventory would be considered very valuable to the right people.

I am most concerned about the guns and rifles because I found out today that she not only sold on ebay,but she sold them locally as well. If they end up in the wrong hands and are used in a crime, she would be in a lot of trouble right, she is not a gun dealer or anything. That stuff should be documented when sold, right?

She has been told by everyone in the family that what she is doing is wrong, but she kind of doesn't care. But her husband is pretty upset about the guns and he plans on bringing it up at the Masters hearing. So I guess she will be in a lot of trouble, but she can't say she wasn't warned, we all tried.
 

mistoffolees

Senior Member
I just realized I spelled idiot wrong...

Anyway, thank you for the replies. No, she isn't getting what the things are worth. Example, a very old coca cola machine, the kind that looks like a big freezer that you have to open the lid, she sold it for about $200. I know it has to be worth much more. My mother said it was worth thousands.

The antiques are one thing, but her husband has a lot of civil war memoribilia that should be in a museum, some of the documents would be considered priceless. Letters from famous people, stuff like that. I have never seen the stuff but my Mom said the house is full of it and the inventory would be considered very valuable to the right people.
I'm not going to comment on the guns because that has been addressed.

As for the rest, I strongly suspect that you're grossly overestimating what things are worth. A 1930's coca cola cooler in good shape is worth less than $1,000, not thousands (depending on condition, a couple hundred might not be far off).

Civil war memorabilia is a dime a dozen. Even letters from famous people aren't always worth much. Letters from generals and other popular figures may have fairly modest value, particularly if their content is mundane. Now, if it's a letter from Lincoln during wartime, discussing wartime issues or issues like slavery, the value skyrockets.

My point isn't that the stuff is worthless - because it probably isn't. But people who don't know antiques very often greatly overestimate the value, as well. For items like the coca cola cooler and more common civil war stuff, eBay may well result in a very fair price.

What her husband should do it get an emergency hearing banning her from selling his stuff. And if you and your mother and all the people around her are telling her not to do it, why don't they give the things back to her husband?
 

gr8rn

Senior Member
Misto, thanks for your replies. We are half a state away. The only people that are close are my sister, her ex and her one son. The other son lives with my mother and we are all about 4 hours away. We have no keys to the house, only the 19 year old son has access, and apparently the father felt the need to get the guns out. He is very apathetic.

My mother talked to some antique dealers in our area about the machine. They quoted her the $2000. It is my understanding from what I have heard that my BIL's collection is very rare, but I have no idea what is there only know it was said to be valuable, some things considered priceless. Lots of documents and personal effects from around the gettysburg area. Like I said, I have not seen it, but I talked to people that have and they say what is there is very good and the son's are supposed to inherit this stuff.

It just pi$$es everyone off that she is selling the stuff instead of looking for a job. (she was recently fired)
 

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