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shouldn't a sentence be based on the actual crime?

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moondoggie

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Missouri
I live in a 'zero tolerance' county in Missouri. Last year my son was convicted on a marijuana distribution charge. (he actually only had traces of marijuana mixed in with pocket lint, but he had $200.00 dollars he couldn't account for, and the police had found empty packaging in the trash behind his house that they said matched the traces in his pocket. He was charged with having distributed two pounds of marijuana). On a seperate instance, my son had been picked up with a joint in his pocket, and given a misdemeanor charge. Both cases were pending at the same time. The original offer from the prosecutor was a B felony, and a five year sentence. Getting probation on a B felony is apparently very rare here, but his attorney was able to make a deal where my son spent 6 months in county jail for the misdemeanor charge of having the joint, and received 5 years probation with a ten year back-up on the B felony. Unfortunately, he screwed up the probation by picking up another misdemeanor charge, so now they have revoked. I understand that the long sentence is because of the tradeoff for probation, but in the back of my mind something still seems unjust. (even if I ignore how unjust the drug laws themselves can be). What's bothering me, is a common sentence here for a major drug offense is also a B felony, and the average sentence is between 7 and 8 years. My son was sentenced on the same day as a young man who had guns, meth, mushrooms, opiates, marijuana, and many thousands of dollars, and he received the 8 year sentence. They will serve the same percentage of time. Even though my son had a shot at probation and screwed it up, does the original crime not count in determining the sentence? No matter how I look at this, if you add up all of my sons actual infractions, even a tough judge wouldn't have given him 10 years. Is it really common for people to serve an incredibly long sentence because they took probation, and lost it? Thanks
 


justalayman

Senior Member
there are many reasons penalties are assigned as they are. As long as they are within any statutory guidelines, you have very little to argue.
 

The Occultist

Senior Member
If you have problems with the laws in your area, you can address that by approaching your local legislatures to attempt to get the laws changed.
 

cyjeff

Senior Member
To put what the others have said in context, your son proved to the court that he didn't take the court seriously.

The judge, therefore, decided to convince your son to take the proceedings seriously.
 

moondoggie

Junior Member
If you have problems with the laws in your area, you can address that by approaching your local legislatures to attempt to get the laws changed.
I have approached every person in my chain of legislators, form the bottom up. The responses ranged from no response, to automated form letters, to actual phone calls from legislative aides. The few that actually provided a legitimate response all sympathized, but mentioned that their options were limited because being portrayed as 'soft on crime' is political suicide.

I can't blame the politicians. As long as the public believes "bad guys go to prison, and good guys put them there', any attempt to change the system will be met with resistant. I can't blame the public. I had considered myself to be a well informed citizen, until my son wound up in the system. I had no idea how far it had lost its way. Now I've familiarized myself with not only my son's case, but the cases of most people who go through our local system. I refuse to believe that the outcomes are truly what the people would 'want', if they only knew. But you can't just 'tell' people something, if it goes against what they believe to be true.

I do think the people that actually work for the system should be speaking out, but even that gets complicated. When I was the age of my son, if a policeman caught you with marijuana or alcohol, he would most likely confiscate it and call your parents. Nobody went to jail or prison or wound up with a felony conviction on their record. But the local police officers here are at least 10 years younger than I am. When they were growing up, that was probably already beginning to change. They're doing what they know.

The attorneys and the Judges should know better. All I can think is, they justify it by assuring themselves their job is to uphold the law as it exists. And in talking to them, I've also noticed that everyone in law enforcement and the courts seems to dehumanize anyone who stands before them. They will say, "it's not personal-I don't feel any resentment towards the person. I'm just upholding the law." But their next statement will be something derogatory and mean spirited. Something like, "These people are happier in prison anyway. We need to make them suffer more so they won't want to go back".

I went to see my son in prison yesterday. He's still in the reception center, so they are on almost constant lockdown. It was the first truly hot and humid day of the season. The guys came down to the visiting room soaked in sweat. Of course there is no air conditioning, or fans. If we locked up a dog in those conditions, we would call it inhumane-but there is no empathy for people who, in ever increasing numbers, are just guilty of getting caught.

So, I begin at the beginning, by asking the simple questions. I don't care what the law 'says'. I care what the law ought to say. I don't care what the law 'does'. I care what it ought to do. I don't care what the people 'believe'. I care what would actually constitute the best system we can create, and then I'll worry about them. And hope the politicians follow.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
You misunderstood Occ's comment. The time to talk to the legislature to get the laws changed is before you break them.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
So, I begin at the beginning, by asking the simple questions. I don't care what the law 'says'. I care what the law ought to say. I don't care what the law 'does'. I care what it ought to do. I don't care what the people 'believe'. I care what would actually constitute the best system we can create, and then I'll worry about them. And hope the politicians follow.
or one could simply not break the law and they won't be subjected to the situations you complain about. What a novel idea. Be a law abiding citizen and you won't have to sit in prison. I know, it is so amazingly simple I bet you wish your son had thought of that sooner.

the problem with people like your son is; he was given an opportunity to show he really wasn't a bad guy. They gave him probation. The idea was to give him sort of second chance. Well, he proved he didn't deserve the second chance so now he is suffering the penalty for his actions. How can you blame the system when he is the one that he willingly and intentionally took the actions that he knew could get his probation revoked? If he wanted to disregard the laws, there is nobody to blame but him.

It's the same reason I don't jump off 100 foot buildings without a parachute. I know there will be severe consequences. When you do something out of ignorance, you have an excuse. When you do something knowing what the result can be, you have no right to complain about those results.
 

Isis1

Senior Member
Let me know when you start trying to make the change in getting lighter sentences. I'll be standing behind you trying to make the consequences harsher.
 

cyjeff

Senior Member
Okay... OP, I am not trying to be overly blunt here... but you have to be serious.

Your son knowingly committed a crime... repeatedly.

He is also not intelligent enough to STOP committing the crime when on probation.

Now you are saying that it is all the system's fault that your son has thrown away opportunity after opportunity to lessen the impact of these offenses and, instead, continued to commit the same crime or crimes over and over.

That tells the judge that your son will CONTINUE to commit crimes if not incarcerated.

coupled with his attitude in court... yes, I can see this sentence if he was a jerk in court... or didn't show remorse or went into some sort of a "pot should be legal" diatribe in court or something.

You blame the system. The system isn't at fault here.
 

moondoggie

Junior Member
or one could simply not break the law and they won't be subjected to the situations you complain about. What a novel idea. Be a law abiding citizen and you won't have to sit in prison. I know, it is so amazingly simple I bet you wish your son had thought of that sooner.

the problem with people like your son is; he was given an opportunity to show he really wasn't a bad guy. They gave him probation. The idea was to give him sort of second chance. Well, he proved he didn't deserve the second chance so now he is suffering the penalty for his actions. How can you blame the system when he is the one that he willingly and intentionally took the actions that he knew could get his probation revoked? If he wanted to disregard the laws, there is nobody to blame but him.

It's the same reason I don't jump off 100 foot buildings without a parachute. I know there will be severe consequences. When you do something out of ignorance, you have an excuse. When you do something knowing what the result can be, you have no right to complain about those results.
I understand that my son, knowing the consequences, was an idiot. But I don't think that excuses the legal system, or society, from their role in the damage. If we were all held totally accountable for the foolish things we did in our youth, very few (if any) people would not wear a scarlet letter of some type. We used to know that, and take it into account. Certainly not all behaviors can be attributed to youthful stupidity. People that commit infractions that show a total lack of empathy for their victims have issues that extend beyond immaturity. But our current system also shows a total lack of empathy, and isn't based in reality. What does it say about who we are if we are so totally lacking in empathy that we would impose harsh punishments and lifetime sanctions for behaviors that we know are common, and not driven by criminal intent?
 

cyjeff

Senior Member
Oh good. It is time for the "it isn't my son's fault that he is in prison" rant.

I understand that my son, knowing the consequences, was an idiot.
With you so far.

But I don't think that excuses the legal system, or society, from their role in the damage.
What damage?

This is like being pissed at the stove because you touched it when it was hot. Life is cause and effect.

If we were all held totally accountable for the foolish things we did in our youth, very few (if any) people would not wear a scarlet letter of some type.
Actually, from a per percentage basis, there are shockingly low numbers of felons in our midst.

A felony isn't a "foolish thing". I will agree that his conviction will follow him for the rest of his life.

We used to know that, and take it into account. Certainly not all behaviors can be attributed to youthful stupidity.
Like drug distribution.

People that commit infractions that show a total lack of empathy for their victims have issues that extend beyond immaturity. But our current system also shows a total lack of empathy, and isn't based in reality.
Your son was peddling drugs! This isn't accidentally pissing behind a dumpster or mooning a cop.

This is something that he knowingly and willingly committed.

Further, your son RECEIVED a break and decided that pot was more important. I guess he figured wrong.

Exactly how many chances do you think your son deserves before he is jailed? Exactly how many times do you think the judge should tell him that he goes to jail the next time before it sticks?

What does it say about who we are if we are so totally lacking in empathy that we would impose harsh punishments and lifetime sanctions for behaviors that we know are common, and not driven by criminal intent?
Again, selling drugs is NOT common... and is certainly driven by criminal intent.

You seem to think that your son is an innocent... a boys will be boys type of thing.

A court, a judge found differently.

Considering your son's complete lack of remorse as evidenced by his continued use of the drugs in question makes me think this went exactly correctly.

Your son is a slow learner. That has severe penalties.
 
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