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found supreme court case that helps me!

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javajoe7

Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA but
this is concerning federal aggravated identity theft charge.

I have been doing research on my aggravated identity theft charges.
Supposedly my charges include applying online for credit or bank acts with others names or ss numbers
The article that I am pasting below states that the supreme court has ruled that the
government must prove that the person “knew that their fake documents belonged to a real
person.” If they cant prove where I got them, like the example in this article says in a neighbors
trash where like a tax statement or some document had the persons name and number on it
was found in there or that I contacted one of the victims and asked for their social security
numbers, then they cant prove that I knew the numbers were real, how could they?. Heck, if they cant prove an
illegal immigrant might have known he was using someone else’s real social security number
(which he might’ve bought off of the street, I don’t see how they could prove it in my case
when I still to this day don’t know if they are really real.)
Heres the article, with the ruling.
Supreme Court narrows identify-theft law in immigration case
The case itself can be found by clicking on the following Cornell link: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-108.ZS.html
 
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justalayman

Senior Member
are you saying the name you used did not match the SSN you used? How did you obtain matching names and SSN's without knowing the number was associated with that (a real) name?
 

javajoe7

Member
response to justalayman

justalayman said "are you saying the name you used did not match the SSN you used?"
Im saying that i dont know if it REALLY did match, i just supposedly entered them on applications and was approved.

justalayman also said "How did you obtain matching names and SSN's without knowing the number was associated with that (a real) name?"

thats not my problem, the prosecution has to prove where i found them AND that where i found them was reliable to me as in i believed them to be real, just meaning they have to show that i knew they were real. So if someone found a tax receipt with name and ss number on it , then thats definite proof that they KNEW they were real, but if someone just finds some on the web or on youtube, then that is 100% non proof that the person thought they were real as that is totally unreliable and not proof.
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anteater

Senior Member
hey ecmst are you being helpful or just condescending?
if so, u should be banned from this site
You seem to have quite the habit of trying to decide who can or cannot respond to your posts and who should or should not be banned.

Quite unbecoming for an alleged perp.
 

swalsh411

Senior Member
You knew they were real once your application was approved so there goes that defense.

You really think you can convice a jury that you didn't think it was for a real person?
 

Mass_Shyster

Senior Member
In the brief read I gave the case you cited, it appears that the person used a valid social security number in conjunction with a fictitious name, and claimed he didn't know the if the number was, in fact, a valid number.

In your case, it appears that you used a number in conjunction with the name that is associated with that number.

It would probably be up to a jury to determine if you knew the number and name were valid. You could argue that the prosecution was unable to state where you got the name and number from, but I don't know if that would counter the fact that the name AND number were valid and the likelihood that you simply guessed them is pretty slim.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
Rudeness aside, the fact that:
Supposedly my charges include applying online for credit or bank acts with others names or ss numbers
makes the cited case inopposite to what the OP is trying to use it for.

In the case, an illegal immigrant was using SS numbers and names on forms to employers. Here is where the "knowingly" issue came in from the statute. The person didn't really care who the person was, he just wanted to work. The case said:
We do not find this argument sufficient, however, to turn the tide in the Government’s favor. For one thing, in the classic case of identity theft, intent is generally not difficult to prove. For example, where a defendant has used another person’s identification information to get access to that person’s bank account, the Government can prove knowledge with little difficulty. The same is true when the defendant has gone through someone else’s trash to find discarded credit card and bank statements, or pretends to be from the victim’s bank and requests personal identifying information. Indeed, the examples of identity theft in the legislative history (dumpster diving, computer hacking, and the like) are all examples of the types of classic identity theft where intent should be relatively easy to prove, and there will be no practical enforcement problem.
The key is not how the information was obtained, but how it was used.

If the government can prove the OP used the info to apply for credit, game over.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
javajoe7;2865172]justalayman said "are you saying the name you used did not match the SSN you used?"
Im saying that i dont know if it REALLY did match, i just supposedly entered them on applications and was approved.
so you admit to fraudulently using a SS number that was not yours, right?

It sounds like you have the perfect opportunity to plea bargain to a lesser charge of fraud, theft, or a half dozen other crimes that may apply.


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ecmst12

Senior Member
I didn't see anywhere you asked a legal question so there was nothing else to respond to. Show the information to your lawyer and good luck. WE are not the people you need to convince.
 

javajoe7

Member
hey tranquility

tranquility said
"In the case, an illegal immigrant was using SS numbers and names on forms to employers. Here is where the "knowingly" issue came in from the statute. The person didn't really care who the person was, he just wanted to work."

tranquility, ur assuming the illegal immigrant didnt know the ss number was a real one and YOU CANT ASSUME THAT! he couldve bought the number offa the street where some criminal told him it was a real and good ss number that could be used for employment . It's just the government cant prove whether he knew it was real or not. get it now???
even if its unlikely that he wouldve known it was real, he still could have!

my point is that i used numbers just like the illegal immigrant without knowing if they were truely real or not. the hackers that post peoples info on website forums , they are the ones that should be charged with aggravated identity theft, not me , as they not only stole the peoples info, then they have the audacity to post them on the web.
 
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