Constitutional Rights

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

Situation:

I have a niece who is thinking of becoming a private investigator. She knows that she may be used on infidelity work by her licensed employer and fears that someone she is told off to watch may take exception to it and maybe try to shoot her, especially if he or she has a rich spouse. As it happens, she has a CCW license and would like to carry a small caliber pistol so she can defend herself. But she's been advised that, even if she eventually meets all the other criteria, the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services may refuse to grant her a PI license if she's fired a handgun during her 'trainee' period.

Questions:

1 Is her understanding of the BSIS position correct?

2 If the situation is as stated above, would the BSIS be in breach of my niece's constitutional rights if it refused her a license for this reason?

(Don't know if this is the right place to ask this, but couldnlt see anywhere else that looked better.

whimangb said:

1 Is her understanding of the BSIS position correct?

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I don't know, but for the purposes of #2, let's assume it is

2 If the situation is as stated above, would the BSIS be in breach of my niece's constitutional rights if it refused her a license for this reason?

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Strictly speaking, the second amendment protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms, not to fire them.

Also, a small caliber pistol does not offer very much protection. A large caliber, small pistol offers better protection. My preferred concealed weapon is a .38 snubnose.

Hopefully if she is intending to carry a gun while she is working in a security job she is not relying on just the CCW. There are specific firearms permitting requirement include initial and recurrent training, etc... before she is allowed to carry a weapon. If she violates those, in her training period or not, which includes just carrying one, whether she fires it or not, she can kiss her license hopes good bye.

Your niece sounds VERY naive.


PS - She cannot legally carry a pistol, of any calibre, while working as an investigator without the proper permit from the department of consumer affairs.

That permit is NOT her CCW.

Even if she is otherwise authorized to carry a firearm, that does not mean that her employer will permit her to do so. I would venture to guess that most PIs do not carry a gun - the nature of the work is not how it is often portrayed on TV. And, as a note, I used to do exactly what it is that your niece is considering, and I never once got close to being shot at.

To carry concealed as a PI in CA you must have an exposed firearms permit issued by the BSIS AND a CCW. The CCW is not sufficient to allow for concealed carry on the job. And, as stated above, the employer may not allow it because that requires them to carry additional liability insurance that they may choose not to adopt.

I know of no reason why the BSIS might reject her application for firing a firearm at the range or other authorized activity prior to the issuing of her PI license, but if she gets involved in a shootout or even an accidental discharge somewhere, they may choose to reconsider her application.

She should work with her potential employer to navigate this river should she really feel the need to possess a firearm as a PI.

Pepper spray will protect her pretty well and with less chance of accidentally hurting herself or some other innocent person.

CdwJava said:

And, as a note, I used to do exactly what it is that your niece is considering, and I never once got close to being shot at.

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Out of curiosity, did you ever get closer as a Nor Cal Cop?

My grandfather spent 20 years as a NYC cop and never did.

Stevef said:

Out of curiosity, did you ever get closer as a Nor Cal Cop?

My grandfather spent 20 years as a NYC cop and never did.

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Yep ... been shot at a couple times, and had people pull all kinds of bad and dangerous stuff on me and nearly shot them (though these were all in SO Cal). I thank God I have not yet had to take a life, but I have come very, very close a few times. I pray I can finish out my career shortly (crossing my fingers that CA pension reform does not prevent me from transitioning out of this career in a year) without having to do so.

ecmst12 said:

Pepper spray will protect her pretty well and with less chance of accidentally hurting herself or some other innocent person.

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True, but she would still need a license for that weapon, if she was carrying it in the course of her investigative work.

xylene said:

Your niece sounds VERY naive.


PS - She cannot legally carry a pistol, of any calibre, while working as an investigator without the proper permit from the department of consumer affairs.

That permit is NOT her CCW.

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My niece knows about http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/fire_fact.shtml and how many beans make 5. I guess I could have listed all the requirements that have to be met to carry a firearm when working as a PI, but even though you might think I was dumb, I assumed you credit my niece with some intelligence and not want to score cheap points. See, I am dumb.

Assuming she had every permit and met all the criteria necessary for it to be legal for her to carry a firearm, and setting aside the question of what caliber the firearm should be, if she got into a situation where someone was shooting at her with intent to kill (maybe actually hit her in the leg, so as to remove any possible doubt as to his or her murderous intent) and she shot back, then:

1 Would the BSIS be likely to refuse her a PI license in due course, assuming she met all the other criteria for obtaining one (including not having shot the Director of the FBI and left her fingerprints at the scene, or threatened to pull a funny face for her enhanced photo ID, or said she won't sign her name on contracts below that of the client but always above)?

2 If the BSIS did refuse her a PI license in the circumstances stated and solely on the grounds that she'd discharged a firearm (in what, let's assume, a court subsequently found was justifiable self-defense and that verdict was not overturned on appeal), would it be an infringement of her constitutional rights?

3 Do you wonder that I'd rather she went to law school?

'Better to stand in the light and be laughed at than to stand in the dark and be ignored.' (Attrib. Buddha; translated by Gore.)

to your question #2

2 If the situation is as stated above, would the BSIS be in breach of my niece's constitutional rights if it refused her a license for this reason?

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No. Constitutionally speaking, she has a right to bear arms. She does not have a Constitutional right to demand the BSIS not have rules as they do. Your argument is that it is a de facto suppression of her right to bear arms if they impose such a rule. It fails because they are not preventing her from her right to bear arms. They are simply applying rules to whom they will issue a license to. She has no Constitutional right to be issued a PI license.

justalayman said:

to your question #2




No. Constitutionally speaking, she has a right to bear arms. She does not have a Constitutional right to demand the BSIS not have rules as they do. Your argument is that it is a de facto suppression of her right to bear arms if they impose such a rule. It fails because they are not preventing her from her right to bear arms. They are simply applying rules to whom they will issue a license to. She has no Constitutional right to be issued a PI license.

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Thanks for a very clear answer. I'd like her not to be a PI, as I've said, and maybe this will help discourage her. It's very hard when children stop being children and do what you think it's not in their best interests. As they get older - or as you get older - it's harder to know what's in their best interests. For the record, I didn't put forward an argument, I asked a question. But I remain grateful for the answer.

If she has a CCW, she can legally carry a firearm pursuant to the laws of the State regardless of whether or not her employer approves. She risks getting fired, but she's not breaking any laws.

whimangb said:

the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services may refuse to grant her a PI license if she's fired a handgun during her 'trainee' period.

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There is no way that's true.

It's kinda true ... the BSIS MAY refuse to grant a PI license for a number of reasons - discharge of a firearm at a location other than a firing range and the like is simply one of many reasons they can use not to issue the license. Not saying they will, but the nature of the language is such that they may be subjective in their analysis should they choose to.

As for carrying in spite of the employer's rules, many permits include language that restricts the carrying of a weapon while in the employ of another unless specifically permitted. So, the CCW MAY be invalid should the carrier choose to carry against the wishes and desires of the employer.

CdwJava said:

It's kinda true ... the BSIS MAY refuse to grant a PI license for a number of reasons - discharge of a firearm at a location other than a firing range and the like is simply one of many reasons they can use not to issue the license. Not saying they will, but the nature of the language is such that they may be subjective in their analysis should they choose to.

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Well that makes slightly more sense. OP said they would deny due to any discharge which is laughable.

CdwJava said:

As for carrying in spite of the employer's rules, many permits include language that restricts the carrying of a weapon while in the employ of another unless specifically permitted. So, the CCW MAY be invalid should the carrier choose to carry against the wishes and desires of the employer.

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I have at one time or another had a permit to carry in FL, UT, PA, VA, and ME and none of those States have that restriction. I am not aware of any State that does, however I would not put anything past CA.