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Living together as "husband" and "wife"

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sharee303

Guest
Here's the deal: my "husband" and I have made personal vows to eachother and have had a private cermoney to exchange these vows. However, we do not believe in marriage licenses or certificates. We feel marriage is a personal bond between two people formed upon love alone and should not ever include the state or any other government body. We don't wish to have any "tax advantage" (filing a joint return), we wish simply to be husband and wife in society. We realize "common-law" marriages can not occur in California, what else can we do? Thanks.
 


I AM ALWAYS LIABLE

Senior Member
sharee303 said:
Here's the deal: my "husband" and I have made personal vows to eachother and have had a private cermoney to exchange these vows. However, we do not believe in marriage licenses or certificates. We feel marriage is a personal bond between two people formed upon love alone and should not ever include the state or any other government body. We don't wish to have any "tax advantage" (filing a joint return), we wish simply to be husband and wife in society. We realize "common-law" marriages can not occur in California, what else can we do? Thanks.
My response:

Do about what ?

So, your shacking up. Neither of you are automatically entitled to each other's Estates or any other protections otherwise afforded by law to married persons.

So, you're entitled to do what you want, and the State won't say a word about it - - nor does the State care.

People live together without wedlock all the time. You just won't have any protections of the law - - that's all.

IAAL
 
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sharee303

Guest
ok ...

just making sure ...

also, do you know if we can sign up for a domestic partnership solely for the purpose of health care (and if something happened to one of us we would be allowed into the hospital as a family member, etc.)?

thanks
 

I AM ALWAYS LIABLE

Senior Member
Re: ok ...

sharee303 said:
just making sure ...

also, do you know if we can sign up for a domestic partnership solely for the purpose of health care (and if something happened to one of us we would be allowed into the hospital as a family member, etc.)?

thanks

My response:

You've never mentioned whether you AND your "husband" are both of the same sex (See #5, below). You've heard of Domestic Partnership, but you weren't told about all of the criteria for qualification. Well, here it is:

Establishment of a domestic partnership - NEW IN CALIFORNIA

Domestic partners are two adults who have chosen to share one another’s lives in an intimate and committed relationship of mutual caring. [Fam C § 297(a)] Two adults establish a domestic partnership in California if each person is at least 18 years of age and all of the following requirements are met [Fam C § 297(b)]:

(1). Both persons have a common residence.

"Have a common residence" means that both domestic partners share the same residence. It is not necessary that the legal right to possess the common residence need not be in both names and one or both may have additional residences. Domestic partners do not cease to have a common residence if one leaves the common residence but intends to return. [Fam C § 297(c)]

(2). Both persons agree to be jointly responsible for each other’s basic living expenses incurred during the domestic partnership.

Basic living expenses includes shelter, utilities and all other costs directly related to the maintenance of the common household of the common residence. it also includes other costs such as medical care if some or all of that cost is paid as a benefit because a person is another person’s domestic partner. [Fam C § 297(d)] Joint responsibility means that each partner agrees to provide for the other’s basic living expenses if that partner is unable to provide for herself or himself. Persons to whom these expenses are owed may enforce this responsibility if, in extending credit or providing goods or services, the creditor relied on the existence of the domestic partnership.[Fam C § 297(e)]

(3). Neither person is married or a member of another domestic partnership.

(4). The two persons are not related by blood in a way that would prevent them from being married to each other in California.

(5). Both persons are members of the same sex or meet the eligibility criteria under 42 USCA § 402(a) for old age insurance benefits, or 42 USCA § 1381 for aged individuals.

(6). Both persons are capable of consenting to the domestic partnership.

(7). Neither person has previously filed a Declaration of Domestic Partnership with the Secretary of State that has not been terminated pursuant to Fam C § 297.

(8). Both persons file a Declaration of Domestic Partnership with the Secretary of State.

The domestic partnership does not change the character of property, real or personal, or any interest in any real or personal property owned by either domestic partner or both of them prior to the date of filing the declaration of domestic partnership.[Fam C § 299.5(c)] Nor does the domestic partnership, in and of itself, create any interest in or rights to property, real or personal, owned by one partner in the other partner, including, but not limited to rights similar to community or quasi-community property.[Fam C § 299.5(d)] Property or interest acquired by the partners during the domestic partnership where title is shared, is held by the partners in proportion of interest assigned to each partner at the time the property or interest is acquired unless otherwise expressly agreed in writing by both partners. [Fam C § 299.5(e)]
The domestic partnership does not change the individual income or estate tax liability of either domestic partner prior to and during the partnership unless otherwise provided under another state or federal law or regulation.[Fam C § 299.5(f)]

Local ordinances or laws that provide for the creation of domestic partnerships are preempted on and after July 1, 2000 unless the local jurisdiction retains or adopts ordinances, policies or laws that offer Fam C § 397 rights to domestic partners and duties on third parties regarding domestic partners. If a jurisdiction retains or adopts ordinances, policies or laws in addition to the Fam C § 397 rights and duties, these local rights may be conditioned on the agreement of the domestic partners to assume the additional obligations [Fam C § 299.6(c)]


Registration of domestic partnership

The Secretary of State must prepare a form entitled Declaration of Domestic Partnership, distribute these to each county clerk through whom these forms are available to the public.[Fam C § 298(a) and (b)] Two persons who desire to become domestic partners must complete and file the Declaration with the Secretary of State.[Fam C § 298.5(a)] On the form each partner must provide a mailing address and states that he or she meets all requirements of Fam C § 297. Both persons must declare that representations made in the form are true and correct and have a notary public acknowledge his or her signature. The signatures of both persons must be attached to one Declaration. [Fam C § 298(c)] Any violation of Fam C § 298(c) is punishable as a misdemeanor.[Fam C § 298(c)] No person who has filed a

Declaration of Domestic Partnership may file a new Declaration of Domestic Partnership until at least six months after the date of a Notice of Termination of Domestic Partnership [see Fam C § 299 and § 20:113] unless the domestic partnership ended because one of the partners died or married. [Fam C § 298.5(c)]


Termination of domestic partnership

A domestic partnership is terminated when one of the following occurs [Fam C § 299(a)]:

(1). One partner gives or sends by certified mail, to the other partner, a written notice that he or she is terminating the partnership.

(2). One of the domestic partners dies.

(3). One of the domestic partners marries.

(4). The domestic partners no longer have a common residence.
On termination of a domestic partnership, at least one former partner must file a Notice of Termination of Domestic Partnership with the Secretary of State by certified mail and send a copy of the notice to the last known address of the other partner.[Fam C § 299(b)] The date on which the Secretary of State receives the

Notice of Termination is the actual termination date of the domestic partnership unless the termination is caused by the death or marriage of one of the partners in which case the date of those events is the date of termination.[Fam C § 299(b)] Upon termination of the domestic partnership, the partners, form that time forward, do not incur any of the obligations ot each other as domestic partners created under Fam C §§ 297 et seq.

A former domestic partner who has given a copy of a Declaration of Domestic Partnership to a third party in order to qualify for a benefit or right must, within 60 days of termination of the domestic partnership, give or send to that third party written notice that the domestic partnership has terminated. Any third party who suffers loss as a result of the domestic partner’s failure to send this notice is entitled to seek recovery from the partner who was obligated to and failed to send the notice. [Fam C § 299(c)]

On termination of the domestic partnership the division of property jointly acquired by the partners is governed by Fam C § 299.5. [Fam C § 299.5(e)]

Good luck to you.

IAAL
 
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sharee303

Guest
it's a hetrosexual relationship ...

so am I to understand that the domestic partnership thing only works if you're both the same sex or if you're both over 60 or something?

also, I've been doing more research on the common-law marriage thing and found out that there may be instances where it would be valid in our case: for example, if we go to Utah, stay in a hotel, sign in as "Mr. & Mrs." and proceed for the duration of our stay to "hold out" as a married couple OR have an additional private ceremony with witnessess followed by the aforementioned, we could be legally married.

thanks
 
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I AM ALWAYS LIABLE

Senior Member
sharee303 said:
it's a hetrosexual relationship ...

so am I to understand that the domestic partnership thing only works if you're both the same sex or if you're both over 60 or something?

thanks
My response:

That's correct.

State sanctioned marriage is starting look better and better, isn't it ?

IAAL
 
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sharee303

Guest
no, it's looking worse - more forced bureaucracy ...

please have a look at what I posted about common law marriage in the aforementioned post.

sorry to waste your time, but we appreciate your knowledge.
 

I AM ALWAYS LIABLE

Senior Member
My response:

You didn't waste my time ! It was an interesting topic.

However, one last thought.

Since sanctioned marriage is "not for you" (and that's okay - - it's not everyone's cup 'o tea), I would suggest that you see an attorney to have a "Live Together" contract prepared - - much like a "Prenuptual Agreement" - - that spells out what's yours, what's his, what each of you expect from the other, property divisions (both real and personal), future contingencies, etc., etc.

Such an agreement will probably be your best bet and keep you both out of court when you eventually break up, and start fighting over who gets the coffee table.

It may be the best, and safest, $1,000.00 you'll ever spend, and still in keeping with your '70's "Hippie" or "Flower Child" lifestyle - - can't be too protected nowadays, can you ?

I wish you the best of fortune.

IAAL
 

I AM ALWAYS LIABLE

Senior Member
sharee303 said:
it's a hetrosexual relationship ...

so am I to understand that the domestic partnership thing only works if you're both the same sex or if you're both over 60 or something?

also, I've been doing more research on the common-law marriage thing and found out that there may be instances where it would be valid in our case: for example, if we go to Utah, stay in a hotel, sign in as "Mr. & Mrs." and proceed for the duration of our stay to "hold out" as a married couple OR have an additional private ceremony with witnessess followed by the aforementioned, we could be legally married.

thanks
My response:

Yes, you could do that. But, you'd need to satisfy the "Common Law" State's residency requirements, first - - e.g., depending on the State, that could be anywhere from 6 months to a year.

Once all the laws of that State have been satisfied, California will recognize that Common Law marriage. However, doesn't even a common law marriage fly in the face of your "Bureuacratic" aversions ?

You see, any type of "marriage", in any State, has to meet Statutory, or State made law, guidelines. Common Law marriage isn't "just there" or is amazingly allowed - - it's set by man made laws. So, if that's what you want to do, what's the difference if you get a Certificate of Marriage in California ? You'll still be complying with the laws of the "other" State anyway.

For example, let's take Texas as a "for instance" - -

In Texas, Common Law marriages are recognized; however, in order for such a marriage to be valid, a couple still must fill out papers and "register" their relationship with the County Clerk's office ! Otherwise, there is no common law marriage. I mean, it seems to be a bit of a waste, since the State must sanction the relationship in some manner, so in Texas, you may as well just get married - - the old fashioned way.

Now, getting back to California.

You've satisfied all of the other State's requirements for a Common Law marriage - - and now you're back in California, and California recognizes your Common Law marriage (California just doesn't allow Common Law marriages to have their genesis in California). But, now it comes time to "split up". Guess what ? You'll need to get a regular divorce (in California, or wherever you live), and place yourself in the hands of the State anyway !

So, if I understand your mindset from the beginning, even a Common Law marriage will be against your belief system.

I think the "Live Together" contract is your best alternative.

IAAL
 
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sharee303

Guest
well, a common law marriage, to us, is more old-fashioned, and in most cases, wouldn't require the filing of any paper work - and we would be able to do things like legally have a health care plan together (because as far as I know, it's illegal to say you're married and sign up for health care together if you are not). It would be bi-passing what we really don't agree with (having to have a state licensed contract in order to love someone as your spouse), yet would satisfy the legal aspect for all intents and purposes.

I found out that in some states, like Pennsylvania, there is no requirement to the length of co-habitation. I read that couples who have secretly run off to the Poconos and signed in as husband and wife might have unknowlingly fulfilled the requirements for a common law marraige in the state of PA. Therefore, it might be possible to just visit the state (say, stay in a hotel) and pronounce that we're married, then come back to CA with a recognized legal marriage.

We're just looking at all of our options here ...
 

I AM ALWAYS LIABLE

Senior Member
My response:

Unless you're looking for a "vacation" to another State, you may as well spend your money on a Live Together contract. Besides, let's assume you go to PA, or Colorado, or Texas, or any of the other Common Law marriage States, and become "married". While California does recognize Common Law marriages occurring in other States, how would you ever "prove" that you are, in fact, married - - especially to a California Dissolution Judge ?

Ten years from now, you'll get fed up with "him", and you'll file for divorce here in California, fully expecting to receive your Community Property share of the house you bought. Then, "Duffus" responds to your Petition for Divorce by saying, "We were never married, and as such, my "girlfriend" has no claim or Community Property rights to the house I bought."

Then what are you going to do ?

There's no "paper trail" proving or disproving a valid marriage in any State. So, what do you do ? How do you dispute "Duffus'" contention that you're not married to him ?

It becomes a real heated (and a money waster) "he said / she said" battle. That's why States with Common law marriage Statutes are trying desperately to get those laws off the books.

Get the contract instead - - and put your relationship in a contractual writing. In other words, think beyond your nose, and think ten years down the line - - protect yourself !

But, you'll remember this 10 years from now, and say to yourself, "You know, I could kick myself, and IAAL was right !"

Listen, I don't practice Family Law for nothing, you know.

IAAL
 

JETX

Senior Member
I AM ALWAYS LIABLE said:

For example, let's take Texas as a "for instance" - -

In Texas, Common Law marriages are recognized; however, in order for such a marriage to be valid, a couple still must fill out papers and "register" their relationship with the County Clerk's office ! Otherwise, there is no common law marriage. I mean, it seems to be a bit of a waste, since the State must sanction the relationship in some manner, so in Texas, you may as well just get married - - the old fashioned way.

IAAL
Well, not really.
"Texas calls it an "informal marriage," rather than a common-law marriage. Under §2.401 of the Texas Family Code, an informal marriage can be established either by declaration (registering at the county courthouse without having a ceremony), or by meeting a 3-prong test showing evidence of (1) an agreement to be married; (2) cohabitation in Texas; and (3) representation to others that the parties are married. The 1995 update adds an evidentiary presumption that there was no marriage if no suit for proof of marriage is filed within two years of the date the parties separated and ceased living together."

Statute: http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/fa/fa000200.html#fa029.2.401
 
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sharee303

Guest
wow ... I guess everyone that posts on here must be a disgruntled divorcee or doesn't know how to make a relationship work ... From that response, it sounds like you're pretty bitter yourself ...

We're not some teenagers unwilling to make a formal commitment. Me and "duffus", as you call him, have already been in our relationship for 10 years (longer than most people today are "married") ... and we'll be in it for the rest of lives here. 10 years from now we'll probably be living happily ever after in Europe, so no divorcee information is not needed thank you ... I appreciate the fact that you're trying to look out for the average person(s) and the average person(s) definitely fall into the categories of those who get married and divorced within 8 years. And the average person(s) are what make up 99.9% of what keeps you practicing law.

Like I said, we're just concerned about issues like health care and the like ... and the only way to get that legally is to be legally married.

I also hear it only takes two adult witnesses and an affidavit at a private ceremony in PA if you don't want to go the long route.

When there's a will, there's a way, and we'll find it. And it won't fit into the tailor made world of average people's solutions.

Thanks anyway.
 

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