My Dog Kills Neighbors Dog - Now we have to go to court...

[BlackDiamond21]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New Jersey

My boyfriend and I own 2 Rotti's & 1 Pit. We have lived next to our neighbors for at least 3 years. Our Pit is 3 yrs old and our two Rotti's from the same litter are 2 yrs old. Our neighbor owns a mutt (that is what she called it) that was about 10lbs and about 14-17 years old that her and her husband found walking the streets one day and took in. Her dog was deaf and not doing well at the time of the incident.

We live in a condo-gated community so all places to walk your dog are considered communal.

Basically we had an unspoken agreement where each of us (neighbors family or us) would put on our front door light to alert our neighbor that we are out with our dog(s). So when she took her dog out, she put on her light and vice versa since we all were used to (hindsight careless about) leaving our dogs off the leash. (please note she even offered/told the police about our unspoken agreement, so it is in the police report) My neighbors has played with our 3 dogs at one point or another since they were babies, so she is familiar with them and liked them.

So one night my bf takes our 3 dogs out and puts our light on. This routine happens every single day at least twice a day from them and us. At about 100 yrds from our front door, our dogs take their potty break. My bf notices a light come on out of the corner of eye as he is picking up poo. He immediately turns to take account of our dogs and notices that our neighbors daughter (21 yrs old) comes out and let's their dog out even though we have our light on. So our male Rotti prances over to say hello to the neighbor dog and the daughter. When our boy dog gets close to the other dog, he stops short and does the booty sniff. As he is sniffing, the other dog turns around and snaps out our dog. Our Roti then reacts and snaps back but gets a hold of their dog. By the time our dog has closed his mouth around our neighbors dog, my bf has made it over to them and is scooping their dog up and out of the way. My bf doesn't realize immediately that our dog is still holding on. He gets our dog to release and immediately brings the dog over to the Mom who flew outside after her daughter started screaming hysterically. This all happened in the matter of 10 secs. Of course our neighbor, the Mom, cusses my bf out but before heading inside, tells him and the small crowd that gathered, her dog is fine. Since my bf was handling her dog during the altercation, he did note that he had no blood or sa any visible wounds on the dog and none of our other two dogs even got involved in the incident.

The police come that night to our home about 2 hrs later. Apparently their dog had to be put down for internal injuries which we feel horribly for. We both grew up with dogs our whole lives and understand the hole that is left when a loved pet passes. We tired to reach out to our neighbor so we can apologize and offer to pay for the ER vet visit but they have refused to speak to us. It is such an uncomfortable tension between us but we have been warned to not push them into speaking to us.

Anyway, the next day Animal Control came and held our dog for 10 days per the NJ laws they have to do that.

Now we have a court date coming up and I am concerned about the following:

1. If our dog has never had any prior instances of violence with other dogs (they all go to the dog park every summer with no trouble) or people (has never had a person biting incident) will they make us register our boy Rotti as a viscous animal? One of the summons is for possibly "harboring a potentially dangerous animal" but I do not believe we are. I mean what defines potentially dangerous in NJ?

2. Will this affect our ability to keep our other dogs?

3. Can our neighbor sue us for anything considering that all of the dogs were off the leash and her dog snapped at our dog/showed aggression first?

I appreciate any and all LEGAL feedback.

 

[Silverplum]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New Jersey

My boyfriend and I own 2 Rotti's & 1 Pit. We have lived next to our neighbors for at least 3 years. Our Pit is 3 yrs old and our two Rotti's from the same litter are 2 yrs old. Our neighbor owns a mutt (that is what she called it) that was about 10lbs and about 14-17 years old that her and her husband found walking the streets one day and took in. Her dog was deaf and not doing well at the time of the incident.

We live in a condo-gated community so all places to walk your dog are considered communal.

Basically we had an unspoken agreement where each of us (neighbors family or us) would put on our front door light to alert our neighbor that we are out with our dog(s). So when she took her dog out, she put on her light and vice versa since we all were used to (hindsight careless about) leaving our dogs off the leash. (please note she even offered/told the police about our unspoken agreement, so it is in the police report) My neighbors has played with our 3 dogs at one point or another since they were babies, so she is familiar with them and liked them.

So one night my bf takes our 3 dogs out and puts our light on. This routine happens every single day at least twice a day from them and us. At about 100 yrds from our front door, our dogs take their potty break. My bf notices a light come on out of the corner of eye as he is picking up poo. He immediately turns to take account of our dogs and notices that our neighbors daughter (21 yrs old) comes out and let's their dog out even though we have our light on. So our male Rotti prances over to say hello to the neighbor dog and the daughter. When our boy dog gets close to the other dog, he stops short and does the booty sniff. As he is sniffing, the other dog turns around and snaps out our dog. Our Roti then reacts and snaps back but gets a hold of their dog. By the time our dog has closed his mouth around our neighbors dog, my bf has made it over to them and is scooping their dog up and out of the way. My bf doesn't realize immediately that our dog is still holding on. He gets our dog to release and immediately brings the dog over to the Mom who flew outside after her daughter started screaming hysterically. This all happened in the matter of 10 secs. Of course our neighbor, the Mom, cusses my bf out but before heading inside, tells him and the small crowd that gathered, her dog is fine. Since my bf was handling her dog during the altercation, he did note that he had no blood or sa any visible wounds on the dog and none of our other two dogs even got involved in the incident.

The police come that night to our home about 2 hrs later. Apparently their dog had to be put down for internal injuries which we feel horribly for. We both grew up with dogs our whole lives and understand the hole that is left when a loved pet passes. We tired to reach out to our neighbor so we can apologize and offer to pay for the ER vet visit but they have refused to speak to us. It is such an uncomfortable tension between us but we have been warned to not push them into speaking to us.

Anyway, the next day Animal Control came and held our dog for 10 days per the NJ laws they have to do that.

Now we have a court date coming up and I am concerned about the following:

1. If our dog has never had any prior instances of violence with other dogs (they all go to the dog park every summer with no trouble) or people (has never had a person biting incident) will they make us register our boy Rotti as a viscous animal? One of the summons is for possibly "harboring a potentially dangerous animal" but I do not believe we are. I mean what defines potentially dangerous in NJ?

2. Will this affect our ability to keep our other dogs?

3. Can our neighbor sue us for anything considering that all of the dogs were off the leash and her dog snapped at our dog/showed aggression first?

I appreciate any and all feedback.

Prove #3, that her dog -- the elderly mutt -- was "aggressive" to a pack of dangerous animals, Rottweilers and a pitbull. And then they killed her, poor old dog.

Puh-leeeeeze.

Get rid of those vile animals. They are of no use whatsoever in society.

 

[BlackDiamond21]

Prove #3, that her dog -- the elderly mutt -- was "aggressive" to a pack of dangerous animals, Rottweilers and a pitbull. And then they killed her, poor old dog.

Puh-leeeeeze.

Get rid of those vile animals. They are of no use whatsoever in society.

They were not together by the small dog, only our boy was. So your point that a "pack" was against her "elderly mutt" is not correct.

I am not looking for a bashing session on my breeds. I am looking for legal advice, PLEASE.

 

[RRevak]

Actually (not to defend OPs dog) BUT...i've seen many MANY instances where older dogs actually become far more aggressive towards other dogs than younger ones, esp when they're health compromised (op stated other owners dog was deaf and generally unhealthy). Its a survival instinct as older compromised dogs tend to become fearful and overly protective of themselves. Especially if the dog was of dominant mentality to begin with.

Now even with that being the case, OP you still have a very serious issue on your hands. Had your dog been better socialized, your dog would not have responded with such aggression and instead chosen to not react (or react in a less violent manner). NJ defines dangerous dogs as being those who pose threats to other domestic animals and more so if the dog kills another domestic animal. It does however, go on to say the dog will not be considered "violent" if the other animal was the aggressor. If you can successfully prove your dog was NOT the one who invoked the fight then you will have a leg to stand on...legally speaking. I'm going to guess that's not going to be easy. The question you really need to be asking yourself here is if its worth the fight to keep a dog that is obviously ill mannered under pressure. Should your dog be found fully in the wrong you're going to be facing a huge uphill battle to have it remain in your possession. You're going to have to register the dog as dangerous, obtain special licensing with a municipal registration number that will follow you and your dog as long as you live where you do. You may also be legally required to muzzle your dog whenever it leaves your premises and keep it muzzled until it is securely back inside. Is this worth keeping a dog that has already demonstrated a pension for violence?

Btw, I too am a full blooded Pit Bull owner so I am in NO way a basher of breeds.

 

[RRevak]

Before you go liking what I had to say I want to make sure you understood what I was saying. Its going to be virtually impossible to prove the other dog was an aggressor enough to instigate a fight sufficient for your dog to react the way it did. You have what i'm guessing to be a roundabout 100lb male Rottweiler. The other is a 10lb mixed breed. If you stepped outside the situation for a second and looked at the picture before you, what would you see? So with that being said you stand a more than likely chance of your dog being found dangerous. Are you prepared to deal with the consequences of keeping said dog? As I said above, you REALLY need to reassess the dog in your possession and try to be more objective. Your male being 2yrs of age is coming into his full maturity and many times behaviors can change in what seems like overnight. If this is the behavior he's demonstrating now, what will next time be like? And I promise you, there WILL be a next time.

 

[tranquility]

I got my wonderful mutt from the pound. It was listed as a "lab mix". One look at the muscles on her, the square head and the maw a family of four could fit in, and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to guess what it is mixed with.

I live in fear of a mistake.

She would never instigate a fight. She has no aggression problems and, when any 'raslin-type game is determined done by me, she will quit on command. But, if she bites another animal or human, her life will change forever. At best, she gets to be completely controlled in all situations and, at worst, she is no longer. That's not a legal position, but a moral one. I cannot have a dangerous animal that hurts something. The moral guilt would be overwhelming. The law will follow along the same path, especially when the particular breed has a bad reputation that, in a moment, the particular dog lived up to. To address that, when in public I am hyper-aware. Because I have a weapon made of meat, I have to be alert and aware wherever that weapon can go off. Walks, while fun and relaxing, are not mindless. (At least on my part. She tends to be more of a goof.)

The OP has three such meat weapons. Sure, they're cuddly, cute and afraid of thunder and it is easy for a person who is around them all the time to forget exactly what they can do. But, any (let alone all) can change the world in a moment. I learned this on the third game controller. She took it in her mouth, I said no and she crunched it into little tiny pieces with a couple of chews in the second or two it took to get to her. The controllers are not fragile either. It was then I learned the responsibility I took on when adopting that dog.

I hope the OP has learned the same lesson.

1. If our dog has never had any prior instances of violence with other dogs (they all go to the dog park every summer with no trouble) or people (has never had a person biting incident) will they make us register our boy Rotti as a viscous animal? One of the summons is for possibly "harboring a potentially dangerous animal" but I do not believe we are. I mean what defines potentially dangerous in NJ?

Because of the broad nature of possible acts I don't think you will find easy guidance. But, I suspect a dog that kills another dog may very well qualify.

2. Will this affect our ability to keep our other dogs?

Only the risk of keeping other dogs. You have been informed of the danger by the act. (Frankly, I suspect you are already "over-dogged" now. I don't think even the two of you together can properly watch three large dogs.)

3. Can our neighbor sue us for anything considering that all of the dogs were off the leash and her dog snapped at our dog/showed aggression first?

Of course. Besides, showing aggression is not an attack. There is no damage. Only one dog caused damage, yours. I don't think dogs have a self-defense defense to YOUR torts. YOU would be the one sued, not your dog. The other side may have some negligence as well, but that is a fact for the jury or judge to determine.

 

[BlackDiamond21]

Before you go liking what I had to say I want to make sure you understood what I was saying. Its going to be virtually impossible to prove the other dog was an aggressor enough to instigate a fight sufficient for your dog to react the way it did. You have what i'm guessing to be a roundabout 100lb male Rottweiler. The other is a 10lb mixed breed. If you stepped outside the situation for a second and looked at the picture before you, what would you see? So with that being said you stand a more than likely chance of your dog being found dangerous. Are you prepared to deal with the consequences of keeping said dog? As I said above, you REALLY need to reassess the dog in your possession and try to be more objective. Your male being 2yrs of age is coming into his full maturity and many times behaviors can change in what seems like overnight. If this is the behavior he's demonstrating now, what will next time be like? And I promise you, there WILL be a next time.

I was liking because you choose not to bash and I appreciate the honesty in what you said.

The position I am in is that on paper the Rottis belong to my BF and the Pit is mine. I love all 3 dogs of course and would never want anything bad to happen to any of them. If it were up to me, and it is not entirely, I would not want him walking around muzzled all the time wearing a license that points him out as a dangerous dog - I would not want that for anyone's dog - that's not a way for them to live IMO. I tired to insist on socializing/manner classes for the Rotti's but my bf refused. My Pit has been properly socialized and has her AKC puppy certificate and I am looking to have her become a therapy dog at children's hospitals but she is still very energetic so they told me to give her some time to calm down but that she has the demeanor to be a therapy dog.

It's a tough spot for me (not looking for pity, just saying) as I am a MAJOR dog lover and this is my bf's dog who I love very much...

 

[RRevak]

I was liking because you choose not to bash and I appreciate the honesty in what you said.

The position I am in is that on paper the Rottis belong to my BF and the Pit is mine. I love all 3 dogs of course and would never want anything bad to happen to any of them. If it were up to me, and it is not entirely, I would not want him walking around muzzled all the time wearing a license that points him out as a dangerous dog - I would not want that for anyone's dog - that's not a way for them to live IMO. I tired to insist on socializing/manner classes for the Rotti's but my bf refused. My Pit has been properly socialized and has her AKC puppy certificate and I am looking to have her become a therapy dog at children's hospitals but she is still very energetic so they told me to give her some time to calm down but that she has the demeanor to be a therapy dog.

It's a tough spot for me (not looking for pity, just saying) as I am a MAJOR dog lover and this is my bf's dog who I love very much...

Should Animal Services choose to push the issue that's EXACTLY what can (and will more than likely) happen to the dog. The law is the law and once your dog has been found to have been directly responsible for the death of another dog it becomes a clear cut case of danger as far as the law perceives things. Is this always right? Maybe, maybe not as all cases can be measured on an individual basis. But i'm not the one who makes the laws. The only thing you can do at this point is to go to the hearing, show the dog was fully and up to date on all vaccinations, and plead your case. I'm not saying you'll prevail, but if you really feel trying is worth it then so be it. But again, as myself and others have said its you who will have to sleep at night with a ticking time bomb at the end of your bed. Choose wisely..

 

[justalayman]

3. Can our neighbor sue us for anything considering that all of the dogs were off the leash and her dog snapped at our dog/showed aggression first?

they can sue you. Whether they will win or not is up to the courts.

Since your dog was the one that approached the other dog, I would suspect liability would be placed on you. You had no control of your dog and that was why what happened happened. The other dog was with its owner so she can arguably state her dog was not out of her control.

 

[commentator]

Beautifully put, guys. All of us dog lovers would hate to see the dog put down or restrained every time it is out, but I have had experience with many kinds of dogs, and I am appalled at the level of unrealistic thinking of many large breed dog owners. In the first place, the reason dogs act like dogs is that they are dogs. They are not people. They are not lovely little creatures who will be good if we love them. They are dogs with instincts. They are also tremendously strong and their jaws are capable of many many pounds of pressure. Even with one single snap of those jaws, they can break bones.

I sometimes cringe when I see small, weak people walking huge Rottweilers and pit bulls on leashes, when I know that the dog could pull that owner right off his/her feet and leave the premises if it wanted to. If even one time, your dog decided to attack something, another animal or a child or an elderly person, you would have a real struggle getting the dog to pay attention to you or to stop doing what it is doing.

All this OP can hope for is that perhaps they will get an understanding court officer who will show them some mercy. Otherwise, there is no logical argument they can produce. So we were all off leash. The small old dog snapped first. But even so, if you had a teenager who is six two and weighs 180 and they beat up an elderly member of the same species who weighs 80 pounds and is four feet tall, you've got a problem justifying it. That's all there is to it.

 

[RRevak]

they can sue you. Whether they will win or not is up to the courts.

Since your dog was the one that approached the other dog, I would suspect liability would be placed on you. You had no control of your dog and that was why what happened happened. The other dog was with its owner so she can arguably state her dog was not out of her control.

OPs dog was with its owner as well and seeing as neither dog was on a leash it could also be argued that NEITHER owner had control of either dog.

 

[BlackDiamond21]

OPs dog was with its owner as well and seeing as neither dog was on a leash it could also be argued that NEITHER owner had control of either dog.

In an effort to explain, please note that my neighbor did not have control over their dog. The daughter was standing at the door and their dog was away from her off leash in the grass by our front doors. I did not mean to give the impression that our neighbors dog was standing right next to the daughter or was in their home when my dog walked up.

I appreciate the legal feedback everyone. It is hard to read, as I am really understanding the possible ramification of this accident as this has never happened to anyone I know, but it is needed.

 

[commentator]

Neither owner may have had control of their dog, but be realistic here, in perception, was it going to be likely to be more dangerous for the old dog to be off leash than your large young animal? No matter how you put it out and argue it, it's not going to look like even steven. In this gunfight, you had a big gun, they had a water pistol.

 

[justalayman]

In an effort to explain, please note that my neighbor did not have control over their dog. The daughter was standing at the door and their dog was away from her off leash in the grass by our front doors. I did not mean to give the impression that our neighbors dog was standing right next to the daughter or was in their home when my dog walked up.

I appreciate the legal feedback everyone. It is hard to read, as I am really understanding the possible ramification of this accident as this has never happened to anyone I know, but it is needed.

You did state your dog went over to say hi to the dog and the girl. To me, that means they were in close proximity and why I said what I did.

If she was not close by her dog, then you are both guilty of no leash. It does change my opinion a bit. Makes it more of a mutual negligence.

what is your court date actually for?

 

[BlackDiamond21]

We are going to court for unleashed dog and potentially owning a dangerous animal.