Possible civil suit with angry customer (Mechanic work)

[WindClimber]

Located in Oregon.

I had a customer come in with a vehicle at 204k miles with a burnt valve. After replacing the head gaskets, doing a valve job (Outsourced to a machine shop), replacing the timing belt and water pump, and replacing the clutch, the customer was back on the road and happy.

2 months and 4k miles later, his wife was driving the car out of town, the car overheated and effectively killed the engine. The first shop it was taken to while out of town, mentioned the radiator cap was left loose; an issue that would have presented very shortly after I did the work if it was something I had done, but ultimately led to the death of the car.

The customer towed the car to my shop and demanded I redo the work. I pulled the engine from the car, disassembled it, and diagnosed fairly; no error in how I did my work or failure of parts I installed. Problem now is that his engine was unusable due to the level of overheating it saw from no coolant in the system. I offered him a replacement engine for 1/2 of my cost, and no labor to install. He refused, stating a lack of faith in my abilities, and came to get his car.

At this point, I had stored his car for 2 1/2 weeks and accrued about 6 hours of work in removing the engine and diagnosing everything, which would total out to $1250 in storage and labor fees.

He made it obvious we'll go to court and came in with a mechanic to pick up his car.

What does this look like going to court? I've already began to chronicle the timeline of working on the car, and keep detailed logs of what I was seeing as I disassembled the engine. In addition, I have a compromise I was trying to offer, and if need be, a bill for storage and labor to "counter" with (Maybe?). I'm not sure what I can prove as far as following the factory service manual, but I do follow it, have a hard copy, and have many many other cars on the road who I've done the same work to without incident.

Any tips on how to to approach this once it gets to court would be appreciated.

EDIT: I should mention, I have no express written warranty on any paperwork in my shop, nor did I verbalize any type of warranty. In fact I mentioned that doing the work on an engine this old may be in vain as it may have other issues.

 

[Nellibelle]

Located in Oregon.

I had a customer come in with a vehicle at 204k miles with a burnt valve. After replacing the head gaskets, doing a valve job (Outsourced to a machine shop), replacing the timing belt and water pump, and replacing the clutch, the customer was back on the road and happy.

2 months and 4k miles later, his wife was driving the car out of town, the car overheated and effectively killed the engine. The first shop it was taken to while out of town, mentioned the radiator cap was left loose; an issue that would have presented very shortly after I did the work if it was something I had done, but ultimately led to the death of the car.

The customer towed the car to my shop and demanded I redo the work. I pulled the engine from the car, disassembled it, and diagnosed fairly; no error in how I did my work or failure of parts I installed. Problem now is that his engine was unusable due to the level of overheating it saw from no coolant in the system. I offered him a replacement engine for 1/2 of my cost, and no labor to install. He refused, stating a lack of faith in my abilities, and came to get his car.

At this point, I had stored his car for 2 1/2 weeks and accrued about 6 hours of work in removing the engine and diagnosing everything, which would total out to $1250 in storage and labor fees.

He made it obvious we'll go to court and came in with a mechanic to pick up his car.

What does this look like going to court? I've already began to chronicle the timeline of working on the car, and keep detailed logs of what I was seeing as I disassembled the engine. In addition, I have a compromise I was trying to offer, and if need be, a bill for storage and labor to "counter" with (Maybe?). I'm not sure what I can prove as far as following the factory service manual, but I do follow it, have a hard copy, and have many many other cars on the road who I've done the same work to without incident.

Any tips on how to to approach this once it gets to court would be appreciated.

EDIT: I should mention, I have no express written warranty on any paperwork in my shop, nor did I verbalize any type of warranty. In fact I mentioned that doing the work on an engine this old may be in vain as it may have other issues.

I'm a bit alarmed at the fact the radiator cap was loose (causing a blown engine) a couple months after you rebuilt the engine. A properly installed radiator cap doesn't have to be touched for months or at least 3000 miles until the next oil change (which could be at least 3 months or so). It seems like you could have been the last one to touch it. I'm thinking that there was no radiator problems because you would have discovered them during your service, so your client could probably claim that you negligently put the radiator cap on the car resulting in the damage. Frankly, it looks that way to me, so I'm not sure you'll have an easy road to hoe when you get to court.

 

[WindClimber]

I'm a bit alarmed at the fact the radiator cap was loose (causing a blown engine) a couple months after you rebuilt the engine. A properly installed radiator cap doesn't have to be touched for months or at least 3000 miles until the next oil change (which could be at least 3 months or so). It seems like you could have been the last one to touch it. I'm thinking that there was no radiator problems because you would have discovered them during your service, so your client could probably claim that you negligently put the radiator cap on the car resulting in the damage. Frankly, it looks that way to me, so I'm not sure you'll have an easy road to hoe when you get to court.

The customer admitted to me that he checked all of the fluids prior to his wife leaving town, and was already overdue for his next oil change.

Not that I can prove that he actually said any of that, but during our encounter today he said "I don't buy that my leaving the cap loose would blow the engine like that."

 

[justalayman]

At this point, I had stored his car for 2 1/2 weeks and accrued about 6 hours of work in removing the engine and diagnosing everything, which would total out to $1250 in storage and labor fees.

did you inform the customer there would be a diagnosis fee or a storage fee? If not, give it up.



I'm with you on the radiator cap should have been an issue before IF there were adequate miles on the work. I have known people that put nearly 0 miles on a car in 2 months so, how many miles did they put on the car after it left your garage?

The customer admitted to me that he checked all of the fluids prior to his wife leaving town, and was already overdue for his next oil change.

including engine coolant? of course knowing that most cars engine coolant is not checked via the radiator cap anymore though. The level is generally checked in the overflow reservoir.

r today he said "I don't buy that my leaving the cap loose would blow the engine like that."

can you explain how it could?

I can but you need to be able to and it has to be explained in such a way it could have happened as it appears to have.


on top of everything else, if they did not have issues prior to the overheating and the engine is toast after, it is simple to argue the overheating caused all the damage. So, you prove they did or likely did something to cause the overheating and you have a fair chance of winning.


ignore the part about the mileage. I ignored it the first time and caught it the second time: 4k

 

[FamilyGirl]

I agree that if you left the radiator cap loose the problems would have started much sooner, and not two months later. Sounds more like he checked the fluids and left the cap loose himself and wants to blame you. I think what you did and offered was far more than fair.

The other shop said they noticed the radiator cap was loose. They couldn't draw any conclusions tying your work to the problem. I don't see how the customer can prove this is your fault given the circumstances. A lot of things could have happened in two months. Without solid proof I think he will have a hard time convincing a Judge your responsible. Others will chime in.

Part of being in business is dealing with angry customers, threats of lawsuits and actual lawsuits. Keep your notes and keep taking them in case you do need to defend yourself in Court.

Question. Did you notice any other cracks or leaks in the cooling system at any time you worked on the car? Did you put your concerns about the age of the vehicle in writing in addition to expressing them to the client?

 

[LdiJ]

Located in Oregon.

I had a customer come in with a vehicle at 204k miles with a burnt valve. After replacing the head gaskets, doing a valve job (Outsourced to a machine shop), replacing the timing belt and water pump, and replacing the clutch, the customer was back on the road and happy.

2 months and 4k miles later, his wife was driving the car out of town, the car overheated and effectively killed the engine. The first shop it was taken to while out of town, mentioned the radiator cap was left loose; an issue that would have presented very shortly after I did the work if it was something I had done, but ultimately led to the death of the car.

The customer towed the car to my shop and demanded I redo the work. I pulled the engine from the car, disassembled it, and diagnosed fairly; no error in how I did my work or failure of parts I installed. Problem now is that his engine was unusable due to the level of overheating it saw from no coolant in the system. I offered him a replacement engine for 1/2 of my cost, and no labor to install. He refused, stating a lack of faith in my abilities, and came to get his car.

At this point, I had stored his car for 2 1/2 weeks and accrued about 6 hours of work in removing the engine and diagnosing everything, which would total out to $1250 in storage and labor fees.

He made it obvious we'll go to court and came in with a mechanic to pick up his car.

What does this look like going to court? I've already began to chronicle the timeline of working on the car, and keep detailed logs of what I was seeing as I disassembled the engine. In addition, I have a compromise I was trying to offer, and if need be, a bill for storage and labor to "counter" with (Maybe?). I'm not sure what I can prove as far as following the factory service manual, but I do follow it, have a hard copy, and have many many other cars on the road who I've done the same work to without incident.

Any tips on how to to approach this once it gets to court would be appreciated.

EDIT: I should mention, I have no express written warranty on any paperwork in my shop, nor did I verbalize any type of warranty. In fact I mentioned that doing the work on an engine this old may be in vain as it may have other issues.

I agree with everyone else if your concern is to defend yourself against a possible lawsuit from the customer. If your concern is the $1250.00 in storage and labor fees you feel that you are due, then maybe you might want to reconsider.

 

[justalayman]

And just a couppe notes;

There is an implied wrranty unless you specifically stated there is no warranty and;

A warranty is irrelevant if the claim against you is negligence which is what leaving a radiator cap loose would be.

 

[WindClimber]

I'm not at all interested in the $1250 labor and storage, but if I can leverage it to settle with him, then so be it.

If he or someone else (Maybe his wife who was driving it, maybe someone at a service station while she was on the road) left the cap loose, the cooling system becomes exposed to atmospheric pressure, which lowers the boiling point of the coolant and allows it to "boil over" which is bad three fold; it pushes coolant out of the system, it allows air into the system, and there's a big temperature increase.

"An automobile engine needs a cooling system to remove heat. For the system to work correctly, it must be self contained--sealed because it uses pressure to function properly. The pressure keeps the coolant from reaching a boiling point as quickly. As the temperature increases the coolant becomes steam. Without a radiator cap, the liquid overflows. Engine overheating can have devastating consequences. The engine begins to "ping" and lose power. This can cause piston, ring and rod bearing damage. Pre-ignition can occur, which creates weak places or "hot spots" which could burn holes in the pistons. Blown head gaskets can occur, cams can freeze up and break. Hoses and radiators can burst."

My concern with the radiator cap argument is that I'm not sure if the shop who it was initially towed to will validate the claim on paper, and I'm pretty sure the argument of "Well the shop it was towed to said the radiator cap was left loose" will get me nowhere in court without something in writing.

 

[FamilyGirl]

I'm not at all interested in the $1250 labor and storage, but if I can leverage it to settle with him, then so be it.

If he or someone else (Maybe his wife who was driving it, maybe someone at a service station while she was on the road) left the cap loose, the cooling system becomes exposed to atmospheric pressure, which lowers the boiling point of the coolant and allows it to "boil over" which is bad three fold; it pushes coolant out of the system, it allows air into the system, and there's a big temperature increase.

"An automobile engine needs a cooling system to remove heat. For the system to work correctly, it must be self contained--sealed because it uses pressure to function properly. The pressure keeps the coolant from reaching a boiling point as quickly. As the temperature increases the coolant becomes steam. Without a radiator cap, the liquid overflows. Engine overheating can have devastating consequences. The engine begins to "ping" and lose power. This can cause piston, ring and rod bearing damage. Pre-ignition can occur, which creates weak places or "hot spots" which could burn holes in the pistons. Blown head gaskets can occur, cams can freeze up and break. Hoses and radiators can burst."

My concern with the radiator cap argument is that I'm not sure if the shop who it was initially towed to will validate the claim on paper, and I'm pretty sure the argument of "Well the shop it was towed to said the radiator cap was left loose" will get me nowhere in court without something in writing.

I think the fact that it has been two months and 4,000 miles later in this situation has a huge bearing here. There is a lot that could happen in 2 months and 4,000 miles. I think it's fair to say if you had left the radiator cap loose that problems would have taken place a lot sooner than now. The cooling system is pressurized, correct? I would assume coolant loss and overheating would take place within a couple hundred miles. I could be wrong.

The radiator cap is something that most vehicle owners would open and close on their own, it's easily accessible. It's not uncommon for it to be opened by the owner to add fluid. I understand most cars have an actual transparent reservoir for coolant nowadays; however OP stated this is an older vehicle. If they brought the car somewhere else for an oil change; the mechanics there may have opened it to top it off and left it loose. Just because the other shop said they noticed the radiator cap was loose doesn't mean much IMO. There's too many things that could have happened over the course of 4k miles and two months that could have caused that.

I feel he has a very long way to go to prove you are responsible for this. If it were a transmission failure or an internal system that you had last worked on, I might feel different. I had a foreign sports car that I brought to a franchise for a brake job. They ended up doing some minor things wrong and cutting corners. Six months later one of my wheel bearings failed. I brought it to the dealership and they took it apart, took pictures and brought me in to ask me who had last repaired my brakes. They actually left out (I think it was called) a cotter pin amongst other things and as a result the system slowly heated up over time and failed. It was actually very dangerous. I had to wrangle with the franchise and submit my complaints to corporate, but eventually they did reimburse me the cost of the repairs (at their part and labor price ). The brake system is not easily accessible and is not something the owner makes adjustments to in the manner that the cooling system is. I had the dealership behind me 100% and they were willing to testify if needed.

The burden of proof rests on him. He would probably need to bring in a mechanic to testify on his behalf as to how this situation can be directly attributed to your work. He'd also need to pay the filing fees and if he chooses, retain a lawyer. In my opinion, there is a lot of doubt between the time this vehicle left your shop and now. If you go to Court; I would definitely bring up the fact that he told you his wife was going out of town and he admitted he checked all the fluids himself. I would also bring up the offer that you made him to resolve the situation, I think it was more than fair because based on the facts you've provided, I really can't see how this could be attributed to your negligence. So the radiator cap was loose? There could be many different reasons for that and again, if the radiator cap were loose when it left your shop I think it would have started to fail a lot sooner.

If I were in your position, this is what I'd say: "I'm very sorry for what's happened with your vehicle, however, considering the circumstances and upon my examination of the vehicle; I've determined that I am not at fault for what's happened. Even though I feel I'm not at fault, I still offered what I feel is a fair and very reasonable resolution to this problem. You've refused to accept my offer, therefore we have nothing further to discuss. If you are going to sue me, you have a right to do that. I will definitely be counter-suing for the storage, labor and diagnostic fees" and end it at that. That's my suggestion fwiw. Good luck!

 

[Zigner]

The radiator cap is something that most vehicle owners would open and close on their own, it's easily accessible. It's not uncommon for it to be opened by the owner to add fluid.

On a properly running vehicle, fluid shouldn't need to be added. I haven't opened the radiator cap on my 11 year old car in 2-3 years and I don't expect to open the radiator cap on my brand new car ever (it's a lease, I'll be turning it in before I'd have cause to open it.)

 

[FamilyGirl]

On a properly running vehicle, fluid shouldn't need to be added. I haven't opened the radiator cap on my 11 year old car in 2-3 years and I don't expect to open the radiator cap on my brand new car ever (it's a lease, I'll be turning it in before I'd have cause to open it.)

Understood. But the customer admitted to checking the fluids before she left town for a long trip, and this is by OP's statements; an older car. And if the radiator cap was left open by OP, it's only reasonable to assume problems would have started a lot sooner with regular driving considering that system is pressurized. Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

[Zigner]

Understood. But the customer admitted to checking the fluids before she left town for a long trip, and this is by OP's statements; an older car.

Fair enough.

 

[justalayman]

Understood. But the customer admitted to checking the fluids before she left town for a long trip, and this is by OP's statements; an older car. And if the radiator cap was left open by OP, it's only reasonable to assume problems would have started a lot sooner with regular driving considering that system is pressurized. Do you see where I'm coming from?

but in a modern car you do not open the radiator cap to check the coolant. You check the reservoir tank so unless the guy said he specifically opened the cap to check the fluid in the radiator, this is not the big win statement.


Ok, so back to the mechanics hour:



the op should be aware that under normal use on a highway the coolant does not get hot enough to boil, with or without the cap. The thermostat is such that it allows coolant flow below the boiling point of water and most assuredly below the boiling point of a coolant/water mixture. The only time boiling should be a concern is upon shutting down the engine as what happens is called "heat soak" where the water setting in the engine is exposed to the high temps but not pumped to the radiator where the absorbed heat is expelled. That causes the coolant to exceed the boiling temp of even the coolant/water mixture.

Now, here is where the radiator cap becomes important. The boiling point of water increases approx 3 degrees for each pound of pressure applied to it. So now everybody run outside and look at your radiator cap. It probable says something like; 15 lbs on it. That means it is designed to allow 15 psi of pressure to build after which it "opens" and allows fluid to escape into the reservoir. It does not require boiling temps for this to happen as fluid does expand when heated and this alone is great enough to cause the radiator cap to function as a release.

This is a typical action, each time the coolant experiences a heat cycle.

Then, upon cooling, the fluid contracts andf what was now pressure become low pressure (vacuum for those that like that term) and due to that and the ambient atmospheric pressure the contents of the reservoir are subject to, fluid is transferred back into the radiator/cooling system.



so, what happens when the radiator cap is left loose?

the pressure that prevents the boiling of the static coolant is not present so, when you shut down the engine and the heat soak condition ensues, the coolant can boil and as we all know, boiling water is expanded water but even if it doesn't boil, it does still expand and would normally go into the reservoir but where it goes is somewhere else and that somewhere is on the ground (usually) because the seal that allows the expanding the water in a properly operating cooling system be directed into the reservoir isn't in place and as such, it often runs onto the ground.

Now, on top of that, as the heated coolant cools it contracts and again, without that seal in place, air is drawn into the cooling system.

Now we have a cooling system that has air in it along with the remaining coolant. Air is not nearly as efficient as a means of heat transfer as water or the even better medium of a water/coolant mixture. Then, when we drive, the heat that is normally removed from the engine via the coolant flowing through the radiator, the engine simply heats up beyond its' design parameters and the oil breaks down, the metals are damaged, and in general, things go to Hell.

so, if I leave a radiator cap loose and start on a drive across the country, if I never shut off the engine or drive in conditions that over stress the cooling system, I may not have any problem. Once I stop, it is likely that the coolant will boil out as described which can be the beginning of the end of the engine, if isn't noticed.

so now, one funny thing about that reservoir issue:

while you normally check the coolant level by checking the level in that reservoir, if the radiator cap is loose, the level in the reservoir may not be affected at all and a person checking the fluid by those means may never realize there is an inadequate amount of coolant in the engine itself.




this really doesn't mean the OP left the cap loose but if he did when he checked the coolant immediately prior to the trip, chances are the customer did not cause the problem unless wife shut down the engine a time or two during the trip and never noticed the coolant loss.


what actually is a more plausible argument is that the owner checked the coolant only via the level in the reservoir and due to the cap being loose since the OP worked on the engine, there was enough coolant lost that was not noticed that the engine overheated and all Hell broke loose.

so, what is the moral to the story?


there isn't one.

but here is my take on the whole thing:


if the wife made several stops during the trip where she shut down the engine it could be that the husband caused the problem by leaving the cap loose immediately prior to the trip


otherwise it is more likely the OP is responsible for the damage due to leaving the radiator cap loose when he did the work.

why things didn't fry before this if the OP is to blame? chance. Damage to oil and metal can be cumulative It may be that the owner simply didn't drive the car long enough at one time previous to the road trip that it didn't cause a total breakdown before this point.

are one of the two scenarios the only possibilities? Nope.

I can see this one going either way. The specifics are going to make a lot of difference in attempting to determine fault but since a court requires a plaintiff to prove their case with a preponderance of the evidence, I think he might have a shot to defend a claim against him as; engine failure due to indeterminable actions by both parties such that it cannot be proven that the OP caused the damage. A stalemate goes to the defendant.





.

 

[WindClimber]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I forgot to mention that he had come back in about 2 weeks after the job was initially completed, so that I could readjust the valve lash. Although I never touched any part of the cooling system, I did visually inspect everything and ran the engine to standard operating temperature to inspect for coolant leaks; of which there were none.

He did have a mechanic with him who I assume would be a witness in his favor, but the mechanic was leaning heavily on my reusing the cylinder head bolts as the reason for failure. Unfortunately for that angle, I follow the factory service manual to the letter and it gives a specific measurement for reusing the bolts, of which they all passed with flying colors.

That said, I will be genuinely surprised if this does go as far as to go to court, but I will definitely take everything posted into consideration.

Thanks again.