Potentially Bogus Water Bill

[addaminsane]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

My question involves malpractice in the state of: Missouri

Hi

I am requesting advice about an outstanding issue between a local small business and the city's water department.

Who Am I?

I am a local aspiring artist that does artwork for a few local businesses. The question i have is related to a local business where i'm in the process of doing artwork for. Over the past year and a half i have made good friends with the owner, and he has had what I feel to be a possible unlawful oppression from the water company weighing him down.

Whats the issue?

Basically, around the time i started painting for him, the water company issued him a huge bill (over $4,000) for water usage that they say he has accumulated. They were and continue to oppress him about this bill.

Being around the place off an on and learning how the business works, it became my opinion that this bill is simply impossible to naturally occur. At the time he began receiving this bill he had been in business for around 2 years and been making his monthly payments.

Also, there are several instances now where the company has seemed to misplace his payments which is another potential sign of negligence and potential unethical business practice ... Anyways,

If his bill averaged even $60 per month, it would take over 66 months for this type of bill to accumulate ... and that is without him paying anything at all. For your info, the business is a hookah bar and $60 per month is probably on the high end of what he could ever average. Water is only used to fill up the hookahs a bit and clean the hookahs and bathrooms. He's open from 4 pm to 12 am most nights.

In researching the issue i found that around that time they had recently replaced a faulty water meter. if you looked at his water bill since then, it would appear to be a normal bill and that alone seems to be proof enough that there isn't a leak and the water bill shouldn't be his responsibility. If it is from a faulty meter, i can only hope that this may prove that the bill is actually the fault of the water company themselves, in which case, i seek advice on how to proceed against them on my friends behalf.

Why do i feel compelled to get involved?

The owner has become a good friend of mine and as an immigrant, his English is choppy and he doesn't feel confident going to court. He's not the type of person take action against a bigger business, and basically, i'm afraid that the water company may be refusing to acknowledge their own ability to error and on top of that are making him pay for their own potential error.

In response to questions about the bill, inadequate, vague answers have been given such as "Water is Expensive".

I feel that the company may be showing unwillingness to show that they may actually be at fault, and at the same time, if in fact they are at fault, they are bringing loads of stress onto the owner, who in my opinion has been trying to pay too much money to them for a bill that may actually be their responsibility. If they are in fact doing this to him, how many others may they be oppressing?

I really want the matter to just disappear, but certain aspects of the situation make me feel that there wouldn't be enough justice done against the potential oppressor if the matter just goes away and they are actually at fault in this instance.

They continue to oppress him about this bill and threaten to shut his water off which would cripple his business, which is without a doubt one of the absolute best hookah bars in the city because of the owners personal involvement in every detail of the operation.

I really don't want him to pay any more unearned money to this company but at the same time he is worried that they will shut his water off if he doesn't cooperate. He is so stressed about it right now that he's trying to see if he can simply take the bill out of his own name and start a new bill under the companies LLC.

I can see that it may be a good idea for him to do that if its even possible, but at the same time it leaves me with an uneasy feeling knowing that a local company may be wrongfully taking advantage of my friend's small business based on their stature within this city and assumption that they could get away with it.

This possibility infuriates me and compels me to seek advice on what i may be able to do to help my friend get this matter resolved whether it be a simple private negotiation with the company or a need to seek justice in a court of law against the potential oppressor by claiming against them for stress damages and also the literal monetary values he has already given them towards this apparent bogus bill.

 

[Proserpina]

This doesn't belong in the small claims section.

Please delete, and get your friend to sign up.

 

[addaminsane]

most good forums ... Im on lots of them ... have moderators that will help place questions in better locations. Good thing i posted this issue on several forums. Are all 42000 of your posts so helpful?

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Meters go bad, customers should notice it almost immediately once they see an abnormal bill. When they fail to do that, the water department assumes the meter and bill to be correct. He should be paying for bills that occur after that point due to his own negligence. Does he have a spigot outside, where a tanker could be loading at night? Could he have a perpetual running toilet in a restroom? Could he have a water leak past his meter? Trust me when I say this, Water Depts. eat plenty of lost water that is not due to faulty meters, reported leaks or deadbeat customers. In fact I learned of one leak in an old multi tenant building last year, just out of the ground and before the meter array that had been present for months based on the rusted metal in the basement. the city, which finished in the red for that department BTW, lost easily over a million un-metered gallons of water before it was discovered..

 

[addaminsane]

Meters go bad, customers should notice it almost immediately once they see an abnormal bill. When they fail to do that, the water department assumes the meter and bill to be correct. He should be paying for bills that occur after that point due to his own negligence. Does he have a spigot outside, where a tanker could be loading at night? Could he have a perpetual running toilet in a restroom? Could he have a water leak past his meter? Trust me when I say this, Water Depts. eat plenty of lost water that is not due to faulty meters, reported leaks or deadbeat customers. In fact I learned of one leak in an old multi tenant building last year, just out of the ground and before the meter array that had been present for months based on the rusted metal in the basement. the city, which finished in the red for that department BTW, lost easily over a million un-metered gallons of water before it was discovered..

Thanks for the reply and info ... The business is on a high traffic main street so it stemming from someone stealing the water seems like a weak possibility in this case. A 4000 bill is hard to attribute to a leaky toilet ... The meter is right in front of the building and there is no evidence of major leaking and his recurring bills are normal. It appears my question will draw up more and more questions that will have to be researched for defense.

 

[Proserpina]

most good forums ... Im on lots of them ... have moderators that will help place questions in better locations. Good thing i posted this issue on several forums. Are all 42000 of your posts so helpful?

Perhaps you should alert a moderator.

 

[quincy]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

My question involves malpractice in the state of: Missouri

I am not seeing any sort of malpractice in what you have written.

I am requesting advice about an outstanding issue between a local small business and the city's water department.

Who Am I?

I am a local aspiring artist that does artwork for a few local businesses. The question i have is related to a local business where i'm in the process of doing artwork for. Over the past year and a half i have made good friends with the owner, and he has had what I feel to be a possible unlawful oppression from the water company weighing him down.

It is nice that you are friends with the owner. The best way you can help him with what you perceive is an "unlawful oppression" by the water company is to direct your friend to an objective professional who can examine the meter, look over the water bills both past and present, and check for any problems in either. The high bill could be the result of a faulty meter or a leak.

Whats the issue?

Basically, around the time i started painting for him, the water company issued him a huge bill (over $4,000) for water usage that they say he has accumulated. They were and continue to oppress him about this bill.

Being around the place off an on and learning how the business works, it became my opinion that this bill is simply impossible to naturally occur. At the time he began receiving this bill he had been in business for around 2 years and been making his monthly payments.

Also, there are several instances now where the company has seemed to misplace his payments which is another potential sign of negligence and potential unethical business practice ... Anyways,

If his bill averaged even $60 per month, it would take over 66 months for this type of bill to accumulate ... and that is without him paying anything at all. For your info, the business is a hookah bar and $60 per month is probably on the high end of what he could ever average. Water is only used to fill up the hookahs a bit and clean the hookahs and bathrooms. He's open from 4 pm to 12 am most nights.

In researching the issue i found that around that time they had recently replaced a faulty water meter. if you looked at his water bill since then, it would appear to be a normal bill and that alone seems to be proof enough that there isn't a leak and the water bill shouldn't be his responsibility. If it is from a faulty meter, i can only hope that this may prove that the bill is actually the fault of the water company themselves, in which case, i seek advice on how to proceed against them on my friends behalf.

Your friend can have the meter inspected. Your friend can compare and contrast past bills with present bills. It needs to be determined first if the owner is being billed now for the actual water used. It is possible that your friend has been undercharged before.

Why do i feel compelled to get involved?

The owner has become a good friend of mine and as an immigrant, his English is choppy and he doesn't feel confident going to court. He's not the type of person take action against a bigger business, and basically, i'm afraid that the water company may be refusing to acknowledge their own ability to error and on top of that are making him pay for their own potential error.

In response to questions about the bill, inadequate, vague answers have been given such as "Water is Expensive".

I feel that the company may be showing unwillingness to show that they may actually be at fault, and at the same time, if in fact they are at fault, they are bringing loads of stress onto the owner, who in my opinion has been trying to pay too much money to them for a bill that may actually be their responsibility. If they are in fact doing this to him, how many others may they be oppressing?

I really want the matter to just disappear, but certain aspects of the situation make me feel that there wouldn't be enough justice done against the potential oppressor if the matter just goes away and they are actually at fault in this instance.

They continue to oppress him about this bill and threaten to shut his water off which would cripple his business, which is without a doubt one of the absolute best hookah bars in the city because of the owners personal involvement in every detail of the operation.

You can help your friend who does not speak English very well by directing him to an attorney in his area if a review of the water bill and meter shows an error by the water company, this if the water company is not willing to accept responsibility for any overcharges due to demonstrated fault on their part.

I really don't want him to pay any more unearned money to this company but at the same time he is worried that they will shut his water off if he doesn't cooperate. He is so stressed about it right now that he's trying to see if he can simply take the bill out of his own name and start a new bill under the companies LLC.

I can see that it may be a good idea for him to do that if its even possible, but at the same time it leaves me with an uneasy feeling knowing that a local company may be wrongfully taking advantage of my friend's small business based on their stature within this city and assumption that they could get away with it.

Your friend should continue to pay his water bill so that his water is not shut off for non-payment, as a shut-off would harm his business. He should continue to pay until the matter is resolved. Then he can seek a refund or credit if it is found he has overpaid.

This possibility infuriates me and compels me to seek advice on what i may be able to do to help my friend get this matter resolved whether it be a simple private negotiation with the company or a need to seek justice in a court of law against the potential oppressor by claiming against them for stress damages and also the literal monetary values he has already given them towards this apparent bogus bill.

The advice I have for you is for you to help your friend find a professional in your area first, to check the meter and to check for possible leaks, and then help your friend find an attorney in your area for a review of the facts, again if the water company is refusing to accept responsibility for any overcharges that might be found.

You are nice to be concerned but this is a problem your friend will eventually have to handle on his own. You can help as translator if it is necessary.

I also have some advice for you if you are seeking additional answers on this forum or answers on other forums. I recommend that you treat ALL volunteers who respond to your concerns with respect. No one has to spend time with you or on your legal questions or concerns. No one has to respond in the way that you want. If you are unhappy with the answers you receive or even the treatment you receive on a forum, simply leave the forum with a "thank you" and end it there.

 

[addaminsane]

now thats useful advice

 

[quincy]

now thats useful advice

I hope so.

One additional note: When consumers have problems with companies over bills that are unreasonably high and they have tried on their own without success to handle the matter with the company, a cheaper alternative to an attorney can sometimes be a television news "call for action" team, if there is a local station in your area that has such a team.

Facts will matter, though, so your friend will want to make sure first that the high bill is due to fault on the part of the utility and is not legitimately owed the water company.

 

[addaminsane]

I hope so.

One additional note: When consumers have problems with companies over bills that are unreasonably high and they have tried on their own without success to handle the matter with the company, a cheaper alternative to an attorney can sometimes be a television news "call for action" team, if there is a local station in your area that has such a team.

Facts will matter, though, so your friend will want to make sure first that the high bill is due to fault on the part of the utility and is not legitimately owed the water company.

members like you make this forum worthwhile

 

[quincy]

members like you make this forum worthwhile

Thank you, addaminsane.

All of us on this forum do our best to help when and where we can.

Good luck to your friend.

 

[CaliforniaBear]

I had a somewhat similar experience in LA. the water company was famously issuing wrong bills to many customers, I received a bill for over $2000 for 2 months usage in a single family house. I called them several times and they kept insisting it was correct. I even sent them a picture where it showed they had billed me for the wrong meter number, and they still insisted.

in the end I sorted it out through phone calls. what I thought was useful in my case was to contact the city administrators but in LA the water is actually distributed by a city department, while I am not sure if your company is private or not. another possibility is to check if missouri has a consumer complaint department at the state level. California does and in some cases it is useful. for example they recovered an overcharge from a mechanic for me once, and all I did was to give them a call.

 

[quincy]

I had a somewhat similar experience in LA. the water company was famously issuing wrong bills to many customers, I received a bill for over $2000 for 2 months usage in a single family house. I called them several times and they kept insisting it was correct. I even sent them a picture where it showed they had billed me for the wrong meter number, and they still insisted.

in the end I sorted it out through phone calls. what I thought was useful in my case was to contact the city administrators but in LA the water is actually distributed by a city department, while I am not sure if your company is private or not. another possibility is to check if missouri has a consumer complaint department at the state level. California does and in some cases it is useful. for example they recovered an overcharge from a mechanic for me once, and all I did was to give them a call.

While good suggestions, it still needs to be determined if the water bill accurately reflects the amount of water used or if the friend was billed $4000 in error.

The bill could be accurate if the faulty meter installed previously was not recording water use properly - this being discovered only after the new meter was installed. It could also be a leak in pipes in the building for which the friend would be responsible.

Calling the water department (which appears to have already been done) and calling various city or state entities to seek relief from the high bill, and filing complaints with agencies, or taking legal action of any sort, can all be considered and/or done - but first it should be determined if the bill is wrong and, if so, why it is wrong.

 

[CaliforniaBear]

While good suggestions, it still needs to be determined if the water bill accurately reflects the amount of water used or if the friend was billed $4000 in error.

The bill could be accurate if the faulty meter installed previously was not recording water use properly - this being discovered only after the new meter was installed. It could also be a leak in pipes in the building for which the friend would be responsible.

Calling the water department (which appears to have already been done) and calling various city or state entities to seek relief from the high bill, and filing complaints with agencies, or taking legal action of any sort, can all be considered and/or done - but first it should be determined if the bill is wrong and, if so, why it is wrong.

it's not that I entirely disagree, you make good points, but some things may be difficult or impossible to determine without any cooperation from the water company/department. calling city administrators and customer agencies can help secure that cooperation. how can you prove the meter was the cause if you cannot examine the meter? by now it might have been destroyed. whether there is a leak should be obvious if the high water usage continues, the business owner should regularly check the meter reading, and so on.

 

[quincy]

it's not that I entirely disagree, you make good points, but some things may be difficult or impossible to determine without any cooperation from the water company/department. calling city administrators and customer agencies can help secure that cooperation. how can you prove the meter was the cause if you cannot examine the meter? by now it might have been destroyed. whether there is a leak should be obvious if the high water usage continues, the business owner should regularly check the meter reading, and so on.

The faulty meter is probably not going to be available to be examined. It will more than likely be necessary to compare old billings to new.

That said, I agree with what you are saying, which is why I also said earlier that a professional should be contacted. Whether the professional is one from the city or the state or a private professional does not matter.

But if it is or was a leak that caused the high usage/high bill, or if the meter was faulty causing the inflated bill, or if the $4000 is only a scrivener's error should be able to be determined after a personal review of all factors.

We cannot forget that addaminsane may not have access to all of the background or facts, either, seeing as how addaminsane is not the owner of the hookah bar. He is only a concerned friend of the owner who received the bill.