California speeding ticket

[robywang]

What is the name of your state? CA

I was cited for speeding last month.
I was driving on CA-84 westbound towards Dumbarton bridge. The CHP officer stopped me before the bridge (in front of the KGO transmitter building, or "W/OF KGO" as the officer wrote on the ticket). However he cited the code of 22405(a), which is about "Exceeding Maximum Posted Speeds on Bridge/Tube/Tunnel".
My question is, since I wasn't on the bridge yet, did he cite the right code?
(Or does the bridge extend to non-bridge part of the highway?)
If not, can I plead not guilty because of that?

Also he cited me driving in 81 at 55mph limit. This causes me not eligible for traffic school and hence point of conviction on my record. But my colleague on passenger seat noticed we were going about 75 (on the speedometer) when we saw the patrol vehicle. I started to slow down immediately. So I really doubt I was going 81. How should I do if I want to plead guilty with a reduction of punishment? I hope to at least be able to waive the record by attending the traffic school.

Which direction should I go in terms of better chance of success?
Any advice is welcome.
Thank you very much!

 

[seniorjudge]

Standard answer

Here are some hints on appearing in court:

Dress professionally in clean clothes.

Do not wear message shirts or caps.

Don't chew gum, smoke, or eat. (Smokers...pot or tobacco...literally stink. Remember that before you head for court.)

Bathe and wash your hair.

Do not bring small children or your friends.

Go to court beforehand some day before you actually have to go to watch how things go.

Speak politely and deferentially. If you argue or dispute something, do it professionally and without emotion.

Ask the court clerk who you talk to about a diversion (meaning you want to plead to a different, lesser charge), if applicable in your situation. Ask about traffic school and that the ticket not go on your record, if applicable. Ask also about getting a hardship driving permit, if applicable. Ask about drug court, if applicable.

From marbol:

“Judge...

You forgot the one thing that I've seen that seems to frizz up most judges these days:

If you have a cell phone, make DAMN SURE that it doesn't make ANY noise in the courtroom. This means when you are talking to the judge AND when you are simply sitting in the court room.

If you have a ‘vibrate’ position on your cell phone, MAKE sure the judge DOESN'T EVEN HEAR IT VIBRATE!

Turn it off or put it in silent mode where it flashes a LED if it rings. AND DON'T even DREAM about answering it if it rings.”

(Better yet, don’t carry your cell phone into the courtroom.)”


Here are seven stories that criminal court judges hear the most (and I suggest you do not use them or variations of them):

1. I’ve been saved! (This is not religion specific; folks from all kinds of religious backgrounds use this one.)

2. My girlfriend/mother/sister/daughter/wife/ex-wife/niece/grandma/grand-daughter is pregnant/sick/dying/dead/crippled/crazy and needs my help.

3. I’ve got a job/military posting in [name a place five hundred miles away].

4. This is the first time I ever did this. (This conflicts with number 5 below, but that hasn’t stopped some defendants from using both.)

5. You’ve got the wrong guy. (A variation of this one is the phantom defendant story: “It wasn’t me driving, it was a hitchhiker I picked up. He wrecked the car, drug me behind the wheel then took off.” Or, another variation: “I was forced into it by a bad guy!”)

6. I was influenced by a bad crowd.

7. I/my kid/my whatever has surgery scheduled.


https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?p=854687#post854687

Public defender’s advice

http://newyork.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/70300494.html


Other people may give you other advice; stand by.

 

[robywang]

Hi seniorjudge,

Thanks a lot for the professional advice.
So do you think I still can ask for traffic school even though on the ticket it says I'm not eligible?

Standard answer

Here are some hints on appearing in court:

Dress professionally in clean clothes.

Do not wear message shirts or caps.

Don't chew gum, smoke, or eat. (Smokers...pot or tobacco...literally stink. Remember that before you head for court.)

Bathe and wash your hair.

Do not bring small children or your friends.

Go to court beforehand some day before you actually have to go to watch how things go.

Speak politely and deferentially. If you argue or dispute something, do it professionally and without emotion.

Ask the court clerk who you talk to about a diversion (meaning you want to plead to a different, lesser charge), if applicable in your situation. Ask about traffic school and that the ticket not go on your record, if applicable. Ask also about getting a hardship driving permit, if applicable. Ask about drug court, if applicable.

From marbol:

“Judge...

You forgot the one thing that I've seen that seems to frizz up most judges these days:

If you have a cell phone, make DAMN SURE that it doesn't make ANY noise in the courtroom. This means when you are talking to the judge AND when you are simply sitting in the court room.

If you have a ‘vibrate’ position on your cell phone, MAKE sure the judge DOESN'T EVEN HEAR IT VIBRATE!

Turn it off or put it in silent mode where it flashes a LED if it rings. AND DON'T even DREAM about answering it if it rings.”

(Better yet, don’t carry your cell phone into the courtroom.)”


Here are seven stories that criminal court judges hear the most (and I suggest you do not use them or variations of them):

1. I’ve been saved! (This is not religion specific; folks from all kinds of religious backgrounds use this one.)

2. My girlfriend/mother/sister/daughter/wife/ex-wife/niece/grandma/grand-daughter is pregnant/sick/dying/dead/crippled/crazy and needs my help.

3. I’ve got a job/military posting in [name a place five hundred miles away].

4. This is the first time I ever did this. (This conflicts with number 5 below, but that hasn’t stopped some defendants from using both.)

5. You’ve got the wrong guy. (A variation of this one is the phantom defendant story: “It wasn’t me driving, it was a hitchhiker I picked up. He wrecked the car, drug me behind the wheel then took off.” Or, another variation: “I was forced into it by a bad guy!”)

6. I was influenced by a bad crowd.

7. I/my kid/my whatever has surgery scheduled.


https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?p=854687#post854687

Public defender’s advice

http://newyork.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/70300494.html


Other people may give you other advice; stand by.

 

[seniorjudge]

Hi seniorjudge,

Thanks a lot for the professional advice.
So do you think I still can ask for traffic school even though on the ticket it says I'm not eligible?

You are welcome and I wouldn't have the slightest idea.

I do know that the judge and prosecutor won't beat you up just for asking.

Well...wait a minute...that's California, isn't it....

Okay, I don't know what the judge and prosecutor will do.

Ask them.

If they approach you in a menacing manner, be prepared to get tased.

 

[JIMinCA]

Why would you want to go to traffic school?? Why not just beat the ticket?

Here is what 22405 says:

22405. (a) No person shall drive a vehicle on any bridge, elevated
structure, tube, or tunnel constituting a part of a highway, at a
speed which is greater than the maximum speed which can be maintained
with safety to such structure.
(b) Upon the trial of any person charged with a violation of this
section with respect to a sign erected under Section 22404, proof of
the determination of the maximum speed by the Department of
Transportation or local authority and the erection and maintenance of
the speed signs shall constitute prima facie evidence of the maximum
speed which can be maintained with safety to the bridge, elevated
structure, tube, or tunnel.


So, it looks like you have several really good defenses. One, you weren't on the bridge. I think it would be hard to beat that one. Especially if your friend testifies for you. You can do a trial by written declaration and your friend can simply write a statement. Include pictures or a map/diagram of where you were at with respect to the bridge. This one seems easy.

Also, how many lanes did the road have?

You shouldn't be worried about this one. This really should be easy to beat.

 

[CdwJava]

Depending on where you are, the span of control of the bridge district extends well onto the dry land. The CHP officer likely knows where the bridge starts and stops, but you can certainly try to pursue that angle.

At 26 MPH over the limit, traffic school cannot be offered by the clerk of the court. However, the judge MAY be allowed to offer it at court. Note than in CA most traffic courts will NOT offer traffic school if you go to trial and take the stand and are found guilty.

- Carl

 

[JIMinCA]

Depending on where you are, the span of control of the bridge district extends well onto the dry land. The CHP officer likely knows where the bridge starts and stops, but you can certainly try to pursue that angle.

At 26 MPH over the limit, traffic school cannot be offered by the clerk of the court. However, the judge MAY be allowed to offer it at court. Note than in CA most traffic courts will NOT offer traffic school if you go to trial and take the stand and are found guilty.

- Carl

I don't think that's gonna fly. The OP said the cop pulled him over before he even got to the bridge. We don't know how far in front of the bridge he was stopped, but if he was driving 81 mph that equates to about 120 ft/sec. If you consider that the cop had to recognize that he was speeding, hit his emergency lights, then the driver had to recognize the lights, react and slow to a stop, then it is obvious that he was well before the bridge at the location of the alleged incident. VC22404 states:

22404. The Department of Transportation or local authority making a
determination of the maximum safe speed upon a bridge, elevated
structure, tube, or tunnel shall first make an engineering
investigation and shall hold a public hearing.
Notice of the time and place of the public hearing shall be posted
upon the bridge, elevated structure, tube, or tunnel at least five
days before the date fixed for the hearing. Upon the basis of the
investigation and all evidence presented at the hearing, the
department or local authority shall determine by order in writing the
maximum speed which can be maintained with safety to the bridge,
elevated structure, tube or tunnel. Thereupon, the authority having
jurisdiction over the bridge, elevated structure, tube, or tunnel
shall erect and maintain suitable signs specifying the maximum speed
so determined at a distance of not more than 500 feet from each end
of the bridge, elevated structure, tube, tunnel, or any approach
thereto.

This gives 500 feet from the approach to bridge to erect a sign specifying the maximum speed for the bridge. So, question for the OP is... where is the sign? Is there a sign? If there is, had you passed the sign before the cop pulled you over? If there was no sign or if you had yet to get to the sign, then the cop should have written you for 22349, exceeding max speed on a highway. In that case, you look like you have a great case.

 

[robywang]

Thank you all for the replies!
It turns out CdwJava is right. From wikipedia, the control of the bridge spans way beyond the actual bridge. It starts about 1 mile away on the dry land.
CdwJava, so you are saying if I plead guilty there's no chance I can get a lesser conviction of going to traffic school?
It looks like I will have to try speed trap defense if the Engineering and Traffic survey says 85% traffic is faster than 55. I just hate it's only 1mph above the line for traffic school, which frankly I doubt is true.

Depending on where you are, the span of control of the bridge district extends well onto the dry land. The CHP officer likely knows where the bridge starts and stops, but you can certainly try to pursue that angle.

At 26 MPH over the limit, traffic school cannot be offered by the clerk of the court. However, the judge MAY be allowed to offer it at court. Note than in CA most traffic courts will NOT offer traffic school if you go to trial and take the stand and are found guilty.

- Carl

 

[CdwJava]

Thank you all for the replies!
It turns out CdwJava is right. From wikipedia, the control of the bridge spans way beyond the actual bridge. It starts about 1 mile away on the dry land.

Be careful with some of the info on Wikipedia. But, on many of the Bay Area bridges, the bridge actually begins far from the span, so your info may be right.

CdwJava, so you are saying if I plead guilty there's no chance I can get a lesser conviction of going to traffic school?

The clerk of the court cannot allow you traffic school (in other words, it is not available without going to court). So, you'd have to go arraignment or to trial and ask the judge if traffic school is an option. Very often, before trial, the judge will announce that anyone who wants to ask for traffic school can plead guilty and do so if their record allows. But, this practice varies by county. You might consider sitting in on a traffic court hearing to see how they do things.

It looks like I will have to try speed trap defense if the Engineering and Traffic survey says 85% traffic is faster than 55. I just hate it's only 1mph above the line for traffic school, which frankly I doubt is true.

It's not QUITE as simple as that.

My recommendation would be to consult an attorney if you want to make a fight of it. Most people learn just enough from books and web sites to tick off the judge but not enough to make a real challenge to the citation.

Personally, bridges scare me ... I drive like a granny when I am on them. But, that's me.

- Carl

 

[JIMinCA]

Thank you all for the replies!
It turns out CdwJava is right. From wikipedia, the control of the bridge spans way beyond the actual bridge. It starts about 1 mile away on the dry land.
CdwJava, so you are saying if I plead guilty there's no chance I can get a lesser conviction of going to traffic school?
It looks like I will have to try speed trap defense if the Engineering and Traffic survey says 85% traffic is faster than 55. I just hate it's only 1mph above the line for traffic school, which frankly I doubt is true.

What wikipedia says is really irrelevant. It is what the Vehicle Code says that counts.

Have you ordered a traffic engineering survey? How many lanes are on the road you were on? Did the cop use radar? What is the basis of the speed trap defense you are planning on using?

 

[robywang]

What wikipedia says is really irrelevant. It is what the Vehicle Code says that counts.

Have you ordered a traffic engineering survey? How many lanes are on the road you were on? Did the cop use radar? What is the basis of the speed trap defense you are planning on using?

I just submitted a record request form. Still waiting for the reply from Caltrans. Hope they can send me the survey with a reasonable charge.

There are 3 lanes in both directions. From what I understand, the officer used radar (or laser gun maybe), because he checked "Radar Unit" on the ticket.

Depending on the survey, my plan is to defend that I was not speeding over 26mph if majority of traffic during that period of time is faster than 55mph.
Now that it appears I was on the bridge, my goal is not to beat the ticket, but to ask for traffic school and no record basically.

 

[CdwJava]

There is a good chance that a judge will grant you traffic school, and the DA or the court might accept a plea for UNDER 26 MPH at court. I am not sure of the practice where you are these days, but some counties will have a DA present at traffic court to offer these deals ... not as common in the Bay Area as in the valley, but it is still a possibility.

By state law any public records request is limited solely to a copying fee, so the request should be small. If you are asking for them to mail it to you, expect a longer delay. The best bet is to find out where you can pick up a copy and go yourself. If you have had any experience dealing with Cal-Trans, you will understand when I say that the DMV is super on the ball compared to them.

- Carl

 

[JIMinCA]

First of all, I am still pretty unsold on the idea that you were "on the bridge". From the statements from others I have seen here, I would be on the "approach" to the Golden Gate bridge while stiill in Los Angeles.

Second... what was the posted speed limit?? Was it 55 and posted as a "maximum speed"? Is the speed limit on the Bridge different than the speed limit on the rest of the highway?

Personally, I think you still have a very good case, depending on the details of the case that you have yet to provide. Provide more details and let's see what shakes out.

BTW... you should not be charged by CALTRANS.

 

[robywang]

First of all, I am still pretty unsold on the idea that you were "on the bridge". From the statements from others I have seen here, I would be on the "approach" to the Golden Gate bridge while stiill in Los Angeles.

Second... what was the posted speed limit?? Was it 55 and posted as a "maximum speed"? Is the speed limit on the Bridge different than the speed limit on the rest of the highway?

Personally, I think you still have a very good case, depending on the details of the case that you have yet to provide. Provide more details and let's see what shakes out.

BTW... you should not be charged by CALTRANS.

According to the end points of Dumbarton bridge, I was already in the 55mph zone of the bridge. The east end point is the Toll plaza and I was already past it when I was stopped.

The 55mph is prima facie. I don't know yet what's the speed limit on the rest of the highway, but I'm inclined to believe it's 65mph and changes to 55mph on the bridge.

Here go the details:
It was 5pm on a Thursday afternoon. Weather was perfect, so was road condition/visibility. I was driving in the far left lane (probably a carpool lane). The traffic in that lane was light. But the traffic in its right lane was pretty heavy because of the rush hour.

One thing I'm not sure if helps/hurts is, I just moved to CA from TX, and still have TX plate on my car. I wonder if the officer paid special attention to my car because of that, since I was just following the traffic in my lane (this is what I said when the officer asked me).

Thanks a lot again! I really didn't expect so prompt and helpful replies on weekend!

 

[JIMinCA]

Where you stopped is not important. What is important is the location of the alleged offense. It should be on your ticket. It will likely have a milemarker or a crossroad. Whatever it is, you should take a look at it the next time you go that way. See exactly how far it is from the actual start of the bridge. Also, let us know what the information you get from CALTRANS turns out like.