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10-31-2006, 07:49 PM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
| | | Can I get off on a technicality?
What is the name of your state? Wisconsin.
I am charged with going 86 mph in a 65 mph fixed limit zone. Here is the specific law I am charged with:
346.57(4) Fixed limits. In addition to complying with the speed restrictions imposed by subs. (2) and (3) , no person shall drive a vehicle at a speed in excess of the following limits unless different limits are indicated by official traffic signs:
(gm) Sixty-five miles per hour on any freeway or expressway.
The police officer told me and wrote it on the ticket that I was 1,540 feet north of his position when he clocked my speed at 86 mph. I would like to win this ticket on a technicality:
346.02(7) Applicability of provisions requiring signposting. No provision of this chapter for which signs are required shall be enforced against an alleged violator if at the time and place of the alleged violation an official sign is not in proper position and sufficiently legible to be seen by an ordinarily observant person. Whenever a particular section does not state that signs are required, such section is effective even though no signs are erected or in place.
For the law I'm charged with, a sign is required.
345.57(6)
(a) On state trunk highways and connecting highways and on county trunk highways or highways marked and signed as county trunks, the speed limits specified in sub. (4) (e) and (f) are not effective unless official signs giving notice thereof have been erected by the authority in charge of maintenance of the highway in question. The speed limit specified in sub. (4) (g) and (k) is not effective on any highway unless official signs giving notice thereof have been erected by the authority in charge of maintenance of the highway in question. The signs shall be erected at such points as the authority in charge of maintenance deems necessary to give adequate warning to users of the highway in question, but an alleged failure to post a highway as required by this paragraph is not a defense to a prosecution for violation of the speed limits specified in sub. (4) (e) , (f) , (g) or (k) , or in an ordinance enacted in conformity therewith, if official signs giving notice of the speed limit have been erected at those points on the highway in question where a person traversing such highway would enter it from an area where a different speed limit is in effect.
Notice that (gm) is not mentioned above. The 65mph fixed limit IS effective because signs were posted, just not at the time and place of the violation. Therefore, the default 55mph speed limit rule does not come into play.
(b) The limit specified under sub. (4) (gm) is not effective unless official signs giving notice of the limit have been erected by the department.
At the time and place of the violation, there was no speed limit sign that was visible by a reasonable person. Can I win on this technicality? |
10-31-2006, 08:13 PM
| | Senior Member | | Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,456
| | | So you're trying to say that since the last sign you passed was a mile back or something like that that you shouldn't be held accountable for the speed limit? What do you want, a speed limit sign every 500 feet? |
10-31-2006, 08:18 PM
| | Senior Member | | Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,123
| | | T.O., don't even bother. Check his post history if you want a chuckle. Three quarters of his threads get locked.
He definitely falls into the "Nine". |
10-31-2006, 08:39 PM
| | Senior Member | | Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,456
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt581  T.O., don't even bother. Check his post history if you want a chuckle. Three quarters of his threads get locked.
He definitely falls into the "Nine". | Haha wow, you weren't kidding |
11-01-2006, 09:40 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by The Occultist So you're trying to say that since the last sign you passed was a mile back or something like that that you shouldn't be held accountable for the speed limit? What do you want, a speed limit sign every 500 feet? | All I'm asking is that the law is applied. I was given the ticket on a technicality (a fixed limit) and I should be able to get off on a technicality as well. It is not necessary to have a sign every 500 feet. Instead, the police officer should have been clocking people near a sign instead of where there was no sign.
Read the laws I posted above. Interpret them. I did. It looks like I should be able to get off; what do you think? |
11-01-2006, 02:23 PM
| | Senior Member | | Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,456
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by gkisystems Read the laws I posted above. Interpret them. I did. It looks like I should be able to get off; what do you think? | I think you're wrong. Try proving me wrong if you want. Let me know how that goes in trial. You obviously have come up with your own answer and you're not gonna listen to anything we say, so just take it to court and tell us what happens. |
11-01-2006, 02:57 PM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: MD, WV - formerly WA, UT, AL, MS and OR
Posts: 563
| | | there are no signs on that interstate????
The lack of admissable evidence (laser @ 1540 ft.... in WI...) would provide more amunition. |
11-01-2006, 06:53 PM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe10 there are no signs on that interstate????
The lack of admissable evidence (laser @ 1540 ft.... in WI...) would provide more amunition. | Yes, there are signs. My argument is that there are no signs visible at the time and place of the alleged violation.
Is it safe to assume he's using laser? I'm not sure if it's laser or radar - but I am interested in knowing how he knows its 1540 feet. Would type of case law can I use to argue laser is not admissable @ 1540 feet in WI? |
11-01-2006, 06:57 PM
| | Senior Member | | Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,106
| | | In Wisconsin you are responsible for knowing the speed limit on the road you are traveling. |
11-01-2006, 06:59 PM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by weenor In Wisconsin you are responsible for knowing the speed limit on the road you are traveling. | I'm not saying I knew or didn't know the speed limit. I'm not saying the speed limit is not effective. All I'm saying is that the law says the speed limit "should not be enforced" due to the lack of a sign at the time and place of the violation. |
11-02-2006, 12:35 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Elgin, IL USA
Posts: 933
| | | If you try to argue that the 65 speed limit does not apply because you did not see any such sign since you entered that roadway, would you rather be charged with going 31 mph over the default rural 55 limit (no signs required)?
--
What does a person usually say just before they have in accident?
In WI they say: "Hold my beer, I'm gonna try something." |
11-02-2006, 12:50 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by efflandt If you try to argue that the 65 speed limit does not apply because you did not see any such sign since you entered that roadway, would you rather be charged with going 31 mph over the default rural 55 limit (no signs required)?
--
What does a person usually say just before they have in accident?
In WI they say: "Hold my beer, I'm gonna try something." | No, see you aren't reading into it. The fixed limit for that road is 65mph. The 55mph limit only applies when no fixed limit is specified. I'm not trying to argue that there is no limit. All I'm trying to figure out here is can I use the following defense:
"Hey Judge, yeah the speed limit is 65. Yeah, it is possible I was traveling at a speed in excess of that limit. However Judge, you must dismiss this case anyway because there was no sign at the time and place of the violation. I'm not saying the limit doesn't exist or doesn't apply. I'm only saying it should not be enforced." |
11-02-2006, 08:30 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: MD, WV - formerly WA, UT, AL, MS and OR
Posts: 563
| | | Radar does not give a distance measurement, only laser does.
Judicial notice has not been taken for laser in WI. So the prosecution would need to provide an expert witness on laser. and only then with all the supporting foundation for the evidence - certs etc.
Judicial notice may be taken of the reliability of the underlying principles of radar that employs the Doppler effect to determine speed. A prima facie presumption of accuracy of moving radar will be accorded upon competent testimony of the operating officer of required facts. State v. Hanson, 85 Wis. 2d 233, 270 N.W.2d 212 (1978).
Over 1000 ft is hard to support: from another juristiction....
Speed measurements made at any distance up to 1,000 feet shall be admitted, but measurements made at any distance in excess of 1,000 feet shall be admitted only with the support of adequate expert testimony in the individual case.
The beam is 12 ft square at that distance and it also clear at that distance that sufficient tracking history was probably not completed... |
11-02-2006, 02:33 PM
| | Senior Member | | Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,817
| | | Wow, amazing how some idiots can find the DMV office, but not big multiple speed limit signs on a road!!!!!!!!! Must be a rough life being so incompetent and stupid, not to mention embarrassing for trying to weasel out of an obvious law breaking.
You better hope that next time you speed so excessively, you don't kill someone.
Last edited by m martin; 11-03-2006 at 11:25 AM.
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11-02-2006, 02:44 PM
| | Senior Member | | Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: South Cackalacky
Posts: 14,793
| | | True. I don't disagree with you at all. I am just not prepared today to listen to him whine. That's all.
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