Could this be considered entrapment?

[daneurysm]

City/State: Hoquiam, WA

I was cited for doing 28 through a school zone.

At the very end of the school zone facing into it, and visible for blocks: A portable, radar-enabled, changeable traffic control device which displayed your approach speed in bright, red numbers (which does not conform to the specifications indicated by the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices) and a regulation-size speed limit sign next to it that read "30 mph". I sped up when I had passed the last school zone indicator (or so I thought), saw the speed limit sign standing out very conspicuously and a radar reading that indicated I had some headroom.

Could the police placing such an unnecessary sign, facing back into a school zone, turned on during school zone periods, and visible for blocks be considered entrapment?

 

[cbg]

How does their placing a sign telling you your speed constitute enticing you to drive over the speed limit through a school zone?

 

[daneurysm]

How does their placing a sign telling you your speed constitute enticing you to drive over the speed limit through a school zone?

There are 2 flashing yellow lights indicating the school zone. When I was well past the second one, this was in front of me

http://grace.speakeasy.org/~dsimonton/sign.jpg

Why would it entice one to drive over the speed limit through the speed zone? Well, let me answer your question with a question. Why would the police place such a device at the end of a speed zone, facing back into it, clearly visible from the BEGINNING of the school zone and capable of tracking an approaching vehicle for at least 2 full blocks back. At the time you need to be driving AT 30 mph, as indicated by the sign, you would be beyond where this completely unnecessary sign, which conflicts with the operative speed limit within the space you would actually see it, is located.

The manual on uniform traffic control devices states that such signs should either yellow on a black background or vice-versa. This sign is red: the same color as every stop light, stop sign, tail light, nearly every fire engine (admittedly, I've seen some yellow ones, but not most), not to mention that every emergency vehicle has at least one red light. Maybe because it's the universal color for "*WARNING*". People are guaranteed to take notice.

Hoquiam is a town with...sparse resources. Half the buildings in the town center are dilapidated, the local high school is falling to pieces, yet the police force all have brand new cruisers. I suppose a great way to recoup the cost of such things is to place a changeable traffic sign in a dubious location, knowing full well that a number of drivers will undoubtedly see it, speed up, thinking they are still within the legal limit, and incur a citation that cannot be waived, reduced, or suspended. It's interesting to note that a DWI conviction can be deferred, suspended, etc. Hell, even a murder conviction can be reduced, but if you get nailed in a school zone, you're S.O.L.

I'm not seeing much of a benefit to public safety, but it sure as hell sounds like a great way to raise municipal resources.

 

[davew128]

How do you plan on fighting the fact you WERE IN A SCHOOL ZONE? I can see it right on your picture.

 

[justalayman]

I think I understand the OP's argument. He was faced with a speed limit sign that stated the speed limit was 30 mph.



Does the speed limit in the school zone vary based on the time of day or presence of children or anything of the sort? or is there simply a posted speed limit within the school zone lower than 30 mph?

If the first, was it during a period where the speed limit would be below 30 mph? If so, I see no valid argument to the ticket.

If the latter, then I would argue the sign on the speed measuring device should be considered a temporary sign and even if there are other signs in place with a lower limit, that 30 mph sign allowed the higher speed of 30 mph until a sign beyond it reduced the speed limit again.

In the picture, I cannot see the entire "school zone sign" but it looks like it might indicate the beginning or the ending of a school zone. If it indicates the beginning of a school zone, the 30 mph sign is place so the school zone sign would come into play once you passed the 30 mph sign. If the school zone requires a reduced speed, then the reduced speed would be the limit.

If it indicated the end of a school zone, you need to realize a speed limit sign indicates the speed limit at and beyond that sign until some other sign alters the limit. That would mean if you were in a school zone when looking at the radar device, the 30 mph indicated on the sign would not start until you passed that device and a ticket for a lower speed in the school zone would be proper.

 

[HighwayMan]

The manual on uniform traffic control devices states that such signs should either yellow on a black background or vice-versa. This sign is red

And it is NOT a traffic control device. It is telling you what your speed is not what the speed LIMIT is.

 

[HighwayMan]

I'm not sure I get your point.

The speed limit as noted on the trailer sign begins at the sign not before. Apparently the street prior to the trailer is a school zone with a school zone speed limit posted.

The fact that you can see what your own speed is several blocks before the 30 mph zone does not change the fact that you're in a school zone.

 

[daneurysm]

And it is NOT a traffic control device. It is telling you what your speed is not what the speed LIMIT is.

Hey, see that white-on-black "30" next to it?

 

[daneurysm]

I'm not sure I get your point.

The speed limit as noted on the trailer sign begins at the sign not before. Apparently the street prior to the trailer is a school zone with a school zone speed limit posted.

The fact that you can see what your own speed is several blocks before the 30 mph zone does not change the fact that you're in a school zone.

If the speed alters to something which must conform with the speed posted on the side, at and beyond the sign, then what is the point of the radar? The police would have to know that will throw people off.

 

[justalayman]

If the speed alters to something which must conform with the speed posted on the side, at and beyond the sign, then what is the point of the radar? The police would have to know that will throw people off.

as I noted before and highwayman alluded to, a speed limitation begins where the sign is posted. That would mean that even if the sign can be argued as an enforceable sign, it would not be effective until you passed the sign. The radar would be seen as a warning that you are going too fast for the speed zone immediately beyond the the sign and radar. Too many people seem to think that you can start slowing down to the posted speed as you pass the sign. That would be incorrect. Upon passing the sign, the posted limited is in force, immediately.

As such, the sign and radar report is not applicable to the area before reaching the sign.

If the sign is an indication of the speed limit in the area you are actually within, it is still not valid if there are adjustments to the posted speed limit due to school hours or children being present.

So, does the "school zone" sign in your pic state that the school zone begins or ends?

 

[HighwayMan]

Hey, see that white-on-black "30" next to it?

Yes. That IS a traffic control device. So why are you talking about the red numbers violating the definition in the MUTCD?. The variable sign is NOT a TCD - it does NOT try to set the speed limit it merely tells you how fast your car is moving.

 

[HighwayMan]

If the speed alters to something which must conform with the speed posted on the side, at and beyond the sign, then what is the point of the radar? The police would have to know that will throw people off.

Well what direction is the radar supposed to point?

In this case the sign is advising you that the new speed limit is 30 mph starting at that point. It is also telling you how fast your car is moving. So what if you are in the school zone? It is still telling you your speed. That's all.

I can't see how you are claiming entrapment here. The school zone is properly posted according to your description so there is no ambiguity about the speed limit.

I just don't see the point you're arguing.

 

[HighwayMan]

So, does the "school zone" sign in your pic state that the school zone begins or ends?

The only way the OP has a valid argument is if that is the START of the school zone. Then there are two TCD's advising different speed limits for the same stretch of road.

If it is the end of the zone then he doesn't seem to have any argument at all.

 

[daneurysm]

I won

Ticket was dismissed, though not on the basis of entrapment.

First thing I credit with is that this was Hoquiam and I was probably the only defendant to show up in a suit...or even clothing without holes. I also wasn't in on my 3rd (or worse) offense, with half a dozen other outstanding warrants, FTAs, and fines from every court in the state. I addressed the judge as "your honor" and not "hey man, look...". I would imagine that after the fifty or so other such cases that came before me, the judge was probably more inclined to toss a favor my way.

The cop dropped the ball in his (written, I didn't subpoena him) testimony. He made no mention of flashing yellow lights and he didn't state the exact location of where the violation had occurred: just that it was eastbound on Emerson street (which is 2 miles long). The judge asked if the traffic control device (the one I posted here) was active the day I was pulled over. I told him yes it was. He said, "I'm dropping the school zone charge as the police officer made no mention of the precise location or exact time of day, otherwise you were cited for driving 28 in a 30 mph zone. Case dismissed"

 

[HighwayMan]

You never did answer the question about the positioning of the school zone.

But good for you - sloppy deposition from the prosecution.

Now you know to watch out on that stretch of road. Don't expect every officer who writes speeds there to be off the mark in his written statements.