Demurring to a California red light camera ticket

[demurringdude]

I got one of those red light camera tickets. It was mailed to the wrong address (ie not the one on my registration card), and wound up being remailed by the local sherriff's dept way after the 15 day deadline. So I demurred on the grounds of it being late and hence invalid under the vehicle code. Judge denied the demurrer, because my postmarked envelope was extrinsic evidence, and he had to assume the date certified on the face of the ticket was the real mailing date. So then I filed a new demurrer, on the grounds that the address it was mailed to, shown on the face of the complaint, was not my address. He liked that better, and I have a hearing scheduled on it in one month.

Question: Can I prove the address on the complaint is not my address by producing my registration card? Or is that extrinsic evidence. No extrinsic evidence is allowed in a demurrer, the defect has to be on the face of the complaint. Well, the defect is there, but can I show it?

Is my demurrer even the right way to challenge defective service? Any other way to get the court to test the facts before I plea?

 

[Zigner]

I got one of those red light camera tickets. It was mailed to the wrong address (ie not the one on my registration card), and wound up being remailed by the local sherriff's dept way after the 15 day deadline. So I demurred on the grounds of it being late and hence invalid under the vehicle code. Judge denied the demurrer, because my postmarked envelope was extrinsic evidence, and he had to assume the date certified on the face of the ticket was the real mailing date. So then I filed a new demurrer, on the grounds that the address it was mailed to, shown on the face of the complaint, was not my address. He liked that better, and I have a hearing scheduled on it in one month.

Question: Can I prove the address on the complaint is not my address by producing my registration card? Or is that extrinsic evidence. No extrinsic evidence is allowed in a demurrer, the defect has to be on the face of the complaint. Well, the defect is there, but can I show it?

Is my demurrer even the right way to challenge defective service? Any other way to get the court to test the facts before I plea?

Does the address it was mailed to have any relation to you? ie: Is it a former address?

 

[demurringdude]

Does the address it was mailed to have any relation to you? ie: Is it a former address?

They sent it to my street address. The US Mail does not deliver to my street address, which is why the my registration card has my PO Box number. I have a letter from the US Postal Service saying they do not deliver to street addresses in my zip code. Also the Judicial Council instructions for that type of ticket require the mailing address to be used (since they are putting it in the mail, that might seem obvious, but they spell it out just in case). I figured since my address on file is my PO Box., and the code requires them to use the address on file, then the ticket doesn't meet the requirements of the code so the court has no jurisdicition to hear it.

However true all that is, I'm concerned that the court will view it as "extrinsic" evidence that can't be taken at a demurrer.

 

[Zigner]

Also the Judicial Council instructions for that type of ticket require the mailing address to be used...

Please post a link to this rule...

 

[demurringdude]

Please post a link to this rule...

the pdf is here...

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/forms/documents/trinst.pdf

then go to page 8, section 6.150.

also page 6 section 6.070 (b)

Also note that my address on file with the DMV, which is what the Vehicle Code 40518 requires them to use, is my correct mailing address.

 

[Zigner]

the pdf is here...

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/forms/documents/trinst.pdf

then go to page 8, section 6.150.

also page 6 section 6.070 (b)

Also note that my address on file with the DMV, which is what the Vehicle Code 40518 requires them to use, is my correct mailing address.

The rules you are referring to apply when one is "arrested". CVC 40518 specifically states that the notice you received does not constitute an arrest. You are not being denied the ability to mount a defense. Also, out of curiosity, when was the violation alleged to have occurred?

 

[demurringdude]

The rules you are referring to apply when one is "arrested". CVC 40518 specifically states that the notice you received does not constitute an arrest. You are not being denied the ability to mount a defense. Also, out of curiosity, when was the violation alleged to have occurred?

I think it applies to red light tickets too. Appendix D.

The problem with mounting my defense is that I can't introduce "extrinsic" evidence, and without that, I can't prove the complaint was not served properly (on time, to the right address). Hard to believe, but when my first demurrer was denied, I petititioned for a writ, and had that denied on the grounds of using "extrinsic" evidence.

Infraction was March 22nd, and I got the ticket in my PO Box after they resent it on April 10th. Couldn't use the postmark on it to show it was late.

 

[Zigner]

I think it applies to red light tickets too. Appendix D.

The problem with mounting my defense is that I can't introduce "extrinsic" evidence, and without that, I can't prove the complaint was not served properly (on time, to the right address). Hard to believe, but when my first demurrer was denied, I petititioned for a writ, and had that denied on the grounds of using "extrinsic" evidence.

Infraction was March 22nd, and I got the ticket in my PO Box after they resent it on April 10th. Couldn't use the postmark on it to show it was late.

The rules you are referencing didn't come in to effect until April 24th...

 

[demurringdude]

The rules you are referencing didn't come in to effect until April 24th...

Zing! Good point! Were they different before? I'm not particularly reliant on the Judicial Council rules, but it would be a nice bonus. I'm mainly relying on the fact that they didn't use the address on file, which fortunately happens to be my mailing address anyway.

 

[Zigner]

Zing! Good point! Were they different before? I'm not particularly reliant on the Judicial Council rules, but it would be a nice bonus. I'm mainly relying on the fact that they didn't use the address on file, which fortunately happens to be my mailing address anyway.

They DID use your address...you might get lucky, but you might not.

 

[demurringdude]

They DID use your address...you might get lucky, but you might not.

Yes, they did use a street address they got from somewhere, maybe my driver's license, but then Vehicle Code 40518(a) requires that such notices be "mailed to the current address of the registered owner of the vehicle on file with the department”. And that is a PO Box, and I have the Registration Card to prove it.

The big question for me is, can I use that Registration Card in court? Or does it run afoul of the ban on "extrinsic" evidence at a demurrer?

There is no prosecutor at these hearings, but the Commissioner seems more than happy to take up the burden of raising objections to my evidence and arguing with my facts. And introducing his own legal arguments that the prosecutor couldn't be bothered to make. So I need to be on a solid footing.

 

[Zigner]

Yes, they did use a street address they got from somewhere, maybe my driver's license, but then Vehicle Code 40518(a) requires that such notices be "mailed to the current address of the registered owner of the vehicle on file with the department”. And that is a PO Box, and I have the Registration Card to prove it.

The big question for me is, can I use that Registration Card in court? Or does it run afoul of the ban on "extrinsic" evidence at a demurrer?

There is no prosecutor at these hearings, but the Commissioner seems more than happy to take up the burden of raising objections to my evidence and arguing with my facts. And introducing his own legal arguments that the prosecutor couldn't be bothered to make. So I need to be on a solid footing.

They mailed it to a current address. I'm not saying you have no case...but you do have some hurdles to overcome.

 

[demurringdude]

Let's just say for the sake of argument that your ticket was mailed to "1, North Pole, Never-Never Land" and as a result you didn't get it. Would you be able to say in a demurrer hearing "That is not the address on file at the DMV for the registered owner, and here is my DMV registration card to prove it". Or could the court say "Never mind your inadmissible extrinsic evidence, if Redflix says you live at 1, North Pole, then we accept that as true"

 

[Zigner]

Let's just say for the sake of argument that your ticket was mailed to "1, North Pole, Never-Never Land" and as a result you didn't get it. Would you be able to say in a demurrer hearing "That is not the address on file at the DMV for the registered owner, and here is my DMV registration card to prove it". Or could the court say "Never mind your inadmissible extrinsic evidence, if Redflix says you live at 1, North Pole, then we accept that as true"

If I had told the DMV at some point that my address was 1, North Pole, Never-Never Land, and something got mailed there...well you see where I'm going with this.

But, hey...throw it on the wall and see if it sticks.

 

[demurringdude]

Does anyone know about the issue with extrinsic evidence and demurrers?