Didn't run the red, cop says I did

[cchongkit]

Hi, I live in the Bay Area, CA, & here's my scenario:

@ ~10pm on a Sat I was coming off a 45mph zone downhill (going pretty close to the limit, maybe 47) & was approaching an traffic light intersection where the limit is 30mph. I was already slowing down & the dreaded yellow beast appeared when I was in the "dilemma zone" of 3 car lengths from the limit line. I relied on my judgement & decided the safest course of action was to continue. I kept an eye on the light & it was perhaps 3/4 the up the height of my windshield before it went red, indicating to me I was "safe". I did notice the police cruiser in the opposing intersection, but wasn't worried about it since I felt it was a legal crossing.

within 300 yards I made a right turn onto another major street (had full green, so no slowing down) & drove up a 1/3 mile block at the speed limit of 40mph & got ready to make my next left turn. I then noticed a car blazing up to me & pulled in behind me at the left turn lane. When the right turn arrow went green the cop turned on his lights to pull me over.

I didn't admit to anything other than a concise version of my above statements. He stated I also was speeding which baffled me. Questioning him (politely), he replied that his top speed on his speedo was 45mph on the street on which he was catching up to me (which I'm sure he lost sight of me).

Too late for a short story, but I timed the yellow interval at exactly 3 seconds, but the traffic survey says the 85th % approach speed is 37mph, requiring the light interval to be ~3.7seconds by the CA DOT & Federal DOT.

I plan to argue on the following points:

1) I've been a safe drive for >14 years as indicated by my A++ rating from my insurance (& that my wife complains I drive like a grandpa).
2) The red light can't be enforced since the yellow interval isn't set to the 85th percentile speed standard.

I'll leave it at that if the judge thinks its enough, but follow up with questioning the officer that:
3) He didn't have a clear & unobstructed view of the subject vehicle at all times & can't say what make/model the other vehicles were just ahead of me.
4) he practiced bad judgement that night since he assumed I was speeding at 45mph when he was catching up to me, even though he *was* being "nice" & didn't cite that. I may be able to show in a photo he didn't have a clear unubstructed view of the limit line & my traffic light (it was dark), but I have to go take some pictures.

I know I was long winded, but I needed to give the full scenario & really want to get a feel for if I have a case, or wasting my time (& point). You lawyers/officers out there, please tear my case apart as best you can, you know the judge will!

Thanks!
Chris

[Stevef]

Originally Posted by cchongkit

I'll leave it at that if the judge thinks its enough, but follow up with questioning the officer that:

I don't thing you'll get a second chance. Present everything at once.

[Maestro64]

All that matter on a red light ticket is where was the front of your car when the light turned red relative to the stop line on the road, it does not matter where your car was relative to the actual red light since some times the lights could be before the stop line, this varies by intersection setup. If you car did not cross the stop line before the light turned red, you ran the light. Most likely the officer will say the light turned red before you cross the line, the only issue here he can not see your light, he is assuming that since his light turned red yours did at the same time, I would make him back that fact up, some light are delayed, I have seen that before, it done for traffic flow issues.


Now you could present a case the light failed to meet the minimum yellow time required by the state, however, you will need to show the light was actually faster then allowed.

[cchongkit]

Originally Posted by Maestro64

All that matter on a red light ticket is where was the front of your car when the light turned red relative to the stop line on the road, it does not matter where your car was relative to the actual red light since some times the lights could be before the stop line, this varies by intersection setup. If you car did not cross the stop line before the light turned red, you ran the light. Most likely the officer will say the light turned red before you cross the line, the only issue here he can not see your light, he is assuming that since his light turned red yours did at the same time, I would make him back that fact up, some light are delayed, I have seen that before, it done for traffic flow issues.


Now you could present a case the light failed to meet the minimum yellow time required by the state, however, you will need to show the light was actually faster then allowed.

Excellent point on the light that I wasn't clear on, Maestro64; the signal light was clear across the other side of the intersection, which I intended to prove that based on the angle of inclination that puts me well into the intersection, using a scaled drawing & a little geometry.

On the issue of the officers' light, I also wasn't clear, he was to the left of me at 90 deg, so his light would be turning green & he assumed mine was red (by definition my direction shouldn't be plainly visible to the cross-street, or else it would be quite a safety issue).

On the issue of the yellow interval, I have a mutual friend in the city engineer/traffic dept who is getting me the official 2005 survey & light timing documents, which I was quoting from in my first post (I certainly wouldn't have known the 85th percentile speed of 37mph otherwise ). I don't believe this point will be an issue as I also have the timing on video with frame by frame display.

Thank you very much for your points Maestro64, please don't view my replies as argumentative to you, as I'm just practicing what I'm going to say in court! I just hope my mouth doesn't clam up!

Chris

[Maestro64]

It also does not mater if his light turned green when you were in the intersection. There is also a condition that is call all red which all lights must stay red in order for cars that entered on yellow have time to clear the intersection.

So the officer have to have clear line of sight of your car crossing the stop line in your direction of travel and has to have some clear indication of your light when it turned red and your relative position. If he can not see both at the same time then he is guessing.

Do not expect the officer to know this, you would be surprised how many think the mere fact of being in the intersection when it turns red is running a red light, as far as I know VA is the only state that follows that rule, they say you can not enter unless you can clear before it turns red.